The Great Gun Control Debate

[Fishbone Jones]

What if the wolf happens to be a member of your family, or a friend of the family?

If your in that kind of relationship and haven't  recognised it/ done anything about it, to this point, yeah, your a sheep.

But I'm out of this debate, usually these threads tend to go downhill pretty quickly.

Good luck to ya.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

"and the life we have"
Does that mean you think its ok to blow someone away for stealing from you even is he is unarmed?  If you shoot someone unarmed over your TV or laptop you should probably go to jail with the robber. Murder is generally considered a more severe crime than petty theft.

I won't speak for anyone else. Stealing my car from the front of my house, when I'm not aware, is not meeting me with violence. Carjack my car at a stop light, while pointing a weapon at my family is, and deserves to be returned in kind.

B&E me for whatever, while I'm sleeping, do it quietly and go away. Wake me and come into my bedroom, you leave on a gurney.

 

[Munxcub]

Did I say I'd blow someone away for stealing my laptop unarmed? All I said was that I'm not willing to bend over and take it "just please don't hurt me..." I said I would defend myself and my family. When I caught someone trying to break into my car did I have a gun? no... did I stop them? yes. But not until after they tried my car, found it locked and moved onto my neighbor.  By the time I got outside they tore the rag top off his convertible and grabbed a duffle bag. I yelled after them and they took off. Was it a good idea to confront 2 criminals when I was by myself? Probably not... They did what all yellow crooks do, they dropped it and ran and I returned it to my neighbor. If they turned on me and had a bat, knife etc you better believe I would have liked to have been armed, I could have possibly detained them until cops arrived. Instead they were probably the ones who came back and broke into my car a few weeks later.

I'm not condoning vigilante justice, shoot first ask questions later, etc... I'm advocating responsible use of force in order to protect me/family... And that's where I'm leaving it.

Oh and about the fear mongering regarding the car deaths and "imagine if they had guns..." christ man, better make sure people wear helmets in the shower, better yet no standup showers, could slip and fall, only sponge baths, but no plugged tubs, could drown...

Come on... people are stupid, I expect everyone I meet to be useless and do something that puts me in danger (spend a day driving around Kelowna and it'll make sense) Do I want everyone to be armed? Hell no... do I want myself to be armed? Why not? I'm responsible, I would have the proper training to be safely armed. Would I want others like myself to be armed, why not?

And now I'll go back to quietly reading this thread, as I tend to come off half-cocked in my rants.

 

[canadianblue]

Oh and about the fear mongering regarding the car deaths and "imagine if they had guns..." christ man, better make sure people wear helmets in the shower, better yet no standup showers, could slip and fall, only sponge baths, but no plugged tubs, could drown...

Probably makes more sense than CCW

In most instances common sense should usually prevail. I think that the fact you feel the need to carry a gun around whenever you leave the house showcases your fearfulness than anything else.

When I caught someone trying to break into my car did I have a gun? no... did I stop them? yes. But not until after they tried my car, found it locked and moved onto my neighbor.  By the time I got outside they tore the rag top off his convertible and grabbed a duffle bag. I yelled after them and they took off. Was it a good idea to confront 2 criminals when I was by myself? Probably not... They did what all yellow crooks do, they dropped it and ran and I returned it to my neighbor. If they turned on me and had a bat, knife etc you better believe I would have liked to have been armed, I could have possibly detained them until cops arrived. Instead they were probably the ones who came back and broke into my car a few weeks later.

Here's a better idea, get a description of what they're wearing and what they look like, and then call the police and inform them of whats going on. While your on the phone with 911 ask them about whether you should detain them.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>What if the wolf happens to be a member of your family, or a friend of the family?

Use of force in self-defence is always an option, never a requirement.  You figure it out.

 

[Munxcub]

It's not fearfulness, it's more faithlessness...

How am I supposed to ask the cops if I should detain them after they ran off, 2 nondescript punks in hoods at night... I mean, after I go inside, call 911, give them my address, birthday, phone number, etc, then get connected to a local cop who asks for the same info, then tells me "ya there's a lot of young punks breaking into cars in that area lately..." By that time it's been a good 10 minutes! Those punks are long gone...

Sorry, no slight to cops or anything, I love cops but I understand how relatively powerless they are to deal with stuff like this because these punks are back on the street in an hour with an apology because no one is willing to punish anyone... sigh...

Edit: Now don't take that as me condoning vigilante justice, I'm just saying, there are reasons why I have next to no faith in my fellow man, and want to take every precaution in making sure I can defend myself, wife, family, etc...

 

[canadianblue]

How am I supposed to ask the cops if I should detain them after they ran off, 2 nondescript punks in hoods at night... I mean, after I go inside, call 911, give them my address, birthday, phone number, etc, then get connected to a local cop who asks for the same info, then tells me "ya there's a lot of young punks breaking into cars in that area lately..." By that time it's been a good 10 minutes! Those punks are long gone...

Didn't you say that it was a crime in progress? Hell when my brother called 911 about a noise complaint the RCMP responded within 10 minutes, and it didn't seem like the phone call to 911 was that terrible.

Sorry, no slight to cops or anything, I love cops but I understand how relatively powerless they are to deal with stuff like this because these punks are back on the street in an hour with an apology because no one is willing to punish anyone... sigh...

Didn't you say that you saw them breaking into a car and steal something?

It's not faithlessness its called mean world syndrome, or better known as the Cultivation Theory. Read Culture of Fear by Barry Glassner if you want to know more about it.

http://www.oregonlive.com/special/girls/index.ssf?/special/oregonian/girls/072202_ed.html
http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/Speech/rccs/theory06.htm

 

[Munxcub]

Didn't you say that it was a crime in progress? Hell when my brother called 911 about a noise complaint the RCMP responded within 10 minutes, and it didn't seem like the phone call to 911 was that terrible.

Didn't you say that you saw them breaking into a car and steal something?

It's not faithlessness its called mean world syndrome, or better yet read Culture of Fear by Barry Glassner.

http://www.oregonlive.com/special/girls/index.ssf?/special/oregonian/girls/072202_ed.html

Yes, it was in progress... the progress took all of 45 seconds, the time it took them to find my car locked (I head to my front door and go outside) by then they are at the neighbors car and rip it open, I yelled they ran... 10 minutes would have been 9:45 too late...

But anyways... I just try to expect the worst and hope for the best. But most importantly, be ready for the worst when it happens (not if...) call be cynical, or because I watch violent TV I'm now afraid it's all going to happen to me (which is not the case at all... I watch Canadian news )

I have never mentioned that I am for or against CCW, all I have said was that I am for being prepared to defend myself, et al and that you have no right to tell me otherwise or hamstring me because of the way you choose to live... I'm not forcing a gun into your hand, don't take the legally purchased, extensively trained, registered, and locked up gun from my home (which I don't even have... yet) Plus the only reason I am considering getting a firearm is to keep my skills up as I am under the assumption that we don't get a lot of range time in the reserves. Not to shoot intruders or carry around town... comes back to that responsible behaviour thing.

 

[1feral1]

Well all I can say is I hope you enjoy shooting air rifles, because that is our future if we ignore the trends.

+1 Colin

I totally agree with the Liberal's hidden agenda.

Enjoy 'em while you got them.

Stand united or you will lose it all, one catagory at a time.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Sig guy
The Brady bunch??? Is your source, now I understand. Lott may not be perfect but I will take him over those wacko’s anyday of the week. If bothered to look at the links I sent, most of it is based on US & UN data. You will note that the US is generally a more violent place regardless of whether a gun is used or not, just the nature of the beast based on a lot of factors including population density, age groups, illegal aliens, variable economic growth and decline. If you bother to drill down you will note that 7 counties in all of the US account for most of the homicides (of all types) Also that by US figures 70% of the people who commit murder had a prior record and generally were barred from legal ownership ( I think the number is even higher in Canada). In Canada only 2.27% of all murders were caused by legal gun owners and their guns over the last decade (stats Can)

It boils down to this. In the US there are more guns than ever before, more people getting licenses and the street are not running with blood because of it.

If you don’t want to carry a firearm for protection, no problems fill your boots, but stop telling me and others what we can and can’t do. If I am willing to take the training, keep up my proficiency (on my own nickel I might add), satisfy reasonable government requirements and accept the consequence of any of my actions why should I not have the right to the means in which to protect my family

 

[technofixit]

I started reading the posts on this topic with great interest a few days ago, and it's an interesting topic.
Last summer I got my PAL, and own my own rifles and pistols now.  I shoot as often as I can and have
a great time.  I have invited many non-PAL owners along too, and they also have a great time.  Owning
my own firearms opened my eyes to alot of firearms related problems that the public and politicians have.
The lack of firearms related knowledge our politicians have really astounded me... don't any of them ever
read the Criminal Code of Canada.  It seems like they are just out for ratings and make decisions based on
fear and ignorance of those who are uneducated on Canada's firearms regulations.  In my opinion, a law
abiding citizen who takes on the additional responsibility of obtaining his PAL, owns a firearm, and obtains
additional training with that firearm should be allowed to carry that firearm if he or she wishes to do so. 
All firearms owners may not wish to do this and that's fine with me,  but the option should definitely be
available for interested licensed gun owners.  I am hoping that those in charge will one day see the light
of day and change the laws to reflect this.  Until then I'll keep enjoying my firearms and having fun on the
range. 

 

[canadianblue]

The Brady bunch??? Is your source, now I understand. Lott may not be perfect but I will take him over those wacko’s anyday of the week.

I consider them more thoughtful than LUFA and Mary Rosh.

Also that by US figures 70% of the people who commit murder had a prior record and generally were barred from legal ownership ( I think the number is even higher in Canada). In Canada only 2.27% of all murders were caused by legal gun owners and their guns over the last decade (stats Can)

So that shows that gun control has worked in Canada. As well its telling that alot of the firearms coming into Canada originally come from the United States which should tell you something about their firearms laws.

It boils down to this. In the US there are more guns than ever before, more people getting licenses and the street are not running with blood because of it.

Except in cases where people with mental illness have easily purchased a weapon legally due to lax restrictions on firearms ownership.

If you don’t want to carry a firearm for protection, no problems fill your boots, but stop telling me and others what we can and can’t do.

That's the unfortunate price of living in a democratic society. A society tends to set limits on what people can and cannot do, so it's no surprise they would want to set restrictions on gun ownership.

If I am willing to take the training, keep up my proficiency (on my own nickel I might add), satisfy reasonable government requirements and accept the consequence of any of my actions why should I not have the right to the means in which to protect my family

Probably because it all depends on what you construe as appropriate action to protect your family.

Out...

 

[Inch]

So that shows that gun control has worked in Canada. As well its telling that alot of the firearms coming into Canada originally come from the United States which should tell you something about their firearms laws.

I says pardon??? Only 2.27% of murders in Canada are committed by legal gun owners, how has gun control stopped anything? It just proves that law abiding gun owners commit very few murders despite their access to guns.

Except in cases where people with mental illness have easily purchased a weapon legally due to lax restrictions on firearms ownership.

Are you talking about Virginia Tech? If half a dozen students had guns, that maniac would have been shot within minutes of coming into the building and the number of deaths would have been far less than the 33 that did lose their lives. Besides, you can't point to one guy and turn that into proof that all people with mental illness can get guns, that's just absurd.

That's the unfortunate price of living in a democratic society. A society tends to set limits on what people can and cannot do, so it's no surprise they would want to set restrictions on gun ownership.

That's right, we do live in a democratic society and we all have rights. So why is it ok for me and other gun owners to be subject to warrantless searches and have our personal property seized by the government while criminals are let go because the police violated that very same right by conducting a warrantless search? By the nature of civilized society and freedom, citizens are supposed to be allowed to do whatever they want so long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's Charter Rights. Me carrying a gun isn't going to hurt anyone except those that mean to hurt me.

How would you like it if the government seized your car, without remuneration or warrant?

 

[Rowshambow]

Inch, I think your point of the VT shootings might be a little off. It was prob mass confusion, yes maybe 1 of the students if armed might have shot the bad guy, but the if say 10 other people were also armed, they could start shooting each other, and than how would the police have known who the shooter was/is? they would have to treat everyone with a gun the same, (like a criminal and you CCW guys hate that!) it would have made for more confusion. I know if I was armed in that sit, and heard someone shooting , and then tried to shoot the shooter, everyone else with a gun would have been shot too, as I would not have known who the shooter was, know what I mean?

 

[Inch]

Inch, I think your point of the VT shootings might be a little off. It was prob mass confusion, yes maybe 1 of the students if armed might have shot the bad guy, but the if say 10 other people were also armed, they could start shooting each other, and than how would the police have known who the shooter was/is? they would have to treat everyone with a gun the same, (like a criminal and you CCW guys hate that!) it would have made for more confusion. I know if I was armed in that sit, and heard someone shooting , and then tried to shoot the shooter, everyone else with a gun would have been shot too, as I would not have known who the shooter was, know what I mean?

Like I said before, not everyone should be able to carry a gun for a variety of reasons. If you're going to randomly open fire on anyone with a gun, you're the maniac and you deserve to be shot. I'm pretty sure you can tell who the maniac is by how they carry themselves. Armed citizens attempting to disarm a madman are not going to be walking from room to room shooting, they're going to be moving using cover, carrying themselves in a defensive way vice offensive, and they're going to make sure they have the proper shot before firing. One of the prime safety rules regarding guns is "be sure of your target and beyond", any gun owner knows that and isn't going to take the shot if someone else could get hurt.

By the sounds of it, you shouldn't be allowed to have guns let alone carry them.

And for the record, the shooting stopped when the madman shot himself after killing 32 and wounding 25. The police didn't stop shit.

Here's a story where two armed students did stop a killer, and hard as it may be for you to believe, they didn't shoot each other, the police didn't shoot them and the killer is in jail.
http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/04/when-mass-killers-meet-armed-resistance.html

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Certainly, things will be so much better for us all when our day to day lives look like this  :

 

[Inch]

Certainly, things will be so much better for us all when our day to day lives look like this  :

Funny vid.

But your eye rolling smiley tells me you weren't joking, which amounts to more fear mongoring. Keep laying it on, you may convert me yet.  :

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Sheesh.  Just trying to lighten things up.  Here:

Certainly, things will be so much better for us all when our day to day lives look like this   ;D ;D ;D

 

[canadianblue]

Here's a story where two armed students did stop a killer, and hard as it may be for you to believe, they didn't shoot each other, the police didn't shoot them and the killer is in jail.

In the case you cited, both of the people who subdued the shooters were police officers who also had body armour, hardly a case for arming the general population. It's hard to let the facts get in the way of a good story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

But your eye rolling smiley tells me you weren't joking, which amounts to more fear mongoring. Keep laying it on, you may convert me yet.  

I don't think you should be giving us a lecture on fear when you feel the need to be armed to even step outside of your house, but thats my own opinion. Really nobody is trying to take away duck hunters shotguns here, what I'm arguing is that first of all we don't need CCW, and second registering a gun isn't really infringing your freedom.

I says pardon??? Only 2.27% of murders in Canada are committed by legal gun owners, how has gun control stopped anything? It just proves that law abiding gun owners commit very few murders despite their access to guns.

Yes so the system must be able to filter out some of the whackjobs out there. I'd prefer the current system over a system which sells guns as freely as ice cream.

Are you talking about Virginia Tech? If half a dozen students had guns, that maniac would have been shot within minutes of coming into the building and the number of deaths would have been far less than the 33 that did lose their lives. Besides, you can't point to one guy and turn that into proof that all people with mental illness can get guns, that's just absurd.

Yeah, imagine how much better High Schools, Universities, and Elementary Schools would be if more people carried guns. Kids and guns, a perfect combination.

That's right, we do live in a democratic society and we all have rights. So why is it ok for me and other gun owners to be subject to warrantless searches and have our personal property seized by the government

So did you break the law?

By the nature of civilized society and freedom, citizens are supposed to be allowed to do whatever they want so long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's Charter Rights.

By that same logic we should start legalizing all drugs.

Me carrying a gun isn't going to hurt anyone except those that mean to hurt me.

Unless you make a grave mistake and accidently shoot someone who you perceived to be a threat who may have just happened to be mentally ill.

How would you like it if the government seized your car, without remuneration or warrant?

Well if I'm breaking the law, then I'd try to act in compliance with the law afterwards and fully admit my mistake.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

BE IT RESOLVED that the Liberal Party of Canada take the necessary steps:

1.) to counter the efforts by the Conservative government to end or reduce the scope
of the current gun registry that was enacted by parliament several years ago;
2.) to review the classification of guns so that semi-automatic weapons be classified
as an illegal weapons; and
3.) to enact more severe laws to better control the possession and use of guns.