The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[OldSolduer]

Guns are simply a fact of life here. The key to being either LEO or a CWP Holder in any sort of situation is to think (too many don’t on either side of that - but that’s an education and training issue). I’m very careful about when and where I show a weapon - as when I was a LEO, I encountered too many people who don’t think before they pull or use their weapon.

I’ve been shot at 9-10 times down here, 7 of those were in a 36hr stretch with LAPD (couldn’t pay me enough to work there, as I didn’t include the time a guy tried to shoot me but had .40S&W in the mag of his 9mm, or the guy with the Hi Point .45 that didn’t fire) . I’ve been shot at more from native reserves in Canada…

I despise open carry, unless it’s uniform duty carry. Mainly as it just says I have a gun and probably don’t know anything about it or the law.

Firearms are inanimate objects, so it’s not a gun problem it’s a human problem.

Its also a cultural thing. Its something that is there since before we were born and will remain long after we are gone. We were in Minnesota last year and I guess its Open Carry. I was not fussed about it at all. People carrying weapons are part of me. My wife however was very concerned that someone might try to take his gun.

I have a few contacts who cannot fathom how we live in Winnipeg and its low temps and snow. But we grew up with it and live through it.

It is who we are.

 

[dimsum]

Firearms are inanimate objects, so it’s not a gun problem it’s a human problem.

I agree with that. However, too many humans think that having a gun means that they’re “tough” and may do things that they wouldn’t do without one. As the old Chris Rock (I think) skit goes, “having a gun means I don’t have to work out”.

Plus, who knows how much (if any) training they have with that gun. If they end up using it, it may cause more issues like unintended casualties.

 

[OldSolduer]

Plus, who knows how much (if any) training they have with that gun. If they end up using it, it may cause more issues like unintended casualties.

You hit the nail on the head. Its training that makes the difference between and true "pistolero" and some dunce who bought a gun.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I agree with that. However, too many humans think that having a gun means that they’re “tough” and may do things that they wouldn’t do without one. As the old Chris Rock (I think) skit goes, “having a gun means I don’t have to work out”.

Plus, who knows how much (if any) training they have with that gun. If they end up using it, it may cause more issues like unintended casualties.

Considering the lack of training most the police and military receive on firearms I wouldn’t necessarily use them as the guidelines of a high standard. Most civilians I have encountered tend to shoot and handle their firearms better than most military and police I have seen.

The bar is pretty low for both, and yet somehow the world keeps turning without the mass bloodshed people seem to think concealed carry results in.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Plus, who knows how much (if any) training they have with that gun. If they end up using it, it may cause more issues like unintended casualties.

I took my Sheriff friend out on a pistol training night. He said he shot more rounds in 1 night than 3 years as a Sheriff and learned a lot from our firearm instructor. I know some other LEO's that only shot the minimum amount which is around 50 rds a year. My instructor who competes shoots 50,000rds a year, I shoot on average about 500-1,000rds of pistol a year. When I was competing, I went to a training night about once a month and then was shooting 3,000rd a year. By your measure, most LEO's should have their guns taken away.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I despise open carry, unless it’s uniform duty carry. Mainly as it just says I have a gun and probably don’t know anything about it or the law.

Firearms are inanimate objects, so it’s not a gun problem it’s a human problem.

I am a big fan of CCW, not so much open carry, partial as I would be to tempted to drop $2500 on a nice gun and another 500+ on some nice leather. If I am going to carry I want nice looking gun.

 

[dimsum]

I took my Sheriff friend out on a pistol training night. He said he shot more rounds in 1 night than 3 years as a Sheriff and learned a lot from our firearm instructor. I know some other LEO's that only shot the minimum amount which is around 50 rds a year. My instructor who competes shoots 50,000rds a year, I shoot on average about 500-1,000rds of pistol a year. When I was competing, I went to a training night about once a month and then was shooting 3,000rd a year. By your measure, most LEO's should have their guns taken away.

That brings up two points.

1. LEOs should shoot more if they’re going to be proficient
2. The “stand and fire at the Fig 11 target at the range” may be fine for muscle memory and shooting competitions, but I’d argue that it’s probably not how a situation would go down in real life.

That being said, I’m not sure what the pistol training regimen is like for LEOs but I know the CAF one is literally “can you put rounds on the target”.

 

[dapaterson]

That brings up two points.

1. LEOs should shoot more if they’re going to be proficient
2. The “stand and fire at the Fig 11 target at the range” may be fine for muscle memory and shooting competitions, but I’d argue that it’s probably not how a situation would go down in real life.

That being said, I’m not sure what the pistol training regimen is like for LEOs but I know the CAF one is literally “can you put rounds on the target”.

How dare you question the 9mm pencil!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

That brings up two points.

1. LEOs should shoot more if they’re going to be proficient
2. The “stand and fire at the Fig 11 target at the range” may be fine for muscle memory and shooting competitions, but I’d argue that it’s probably not how a situation would go down in real life.

That being said, I’m not sure what the pistol training regimen is like for LEOs but I know the CAF one is literally “can you put rounds on the target”.

"can you put rounds on the target"

Which is the Number 1 goal to all weapons training.

First you get good, then you get fast. Then you get good AND fast.

 

[KevinB]

As Larry Vickers has pointed out for decades, Speed is Fine, Accuracy is Final.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That brings up two points.

1. LEOs should shoot more if they’re going to be proficient
2. The “stand and fire at the Fig 11 target at the range” may be fine for muscle memory and shooting competitions, but I’d argue that it’s probably not how a situation would go down in real life.

That being said, I’m not sure what the pistol training regimen is like for LEOs but I know the CAF one is literally “can you put rounds on the target”.

Most LEO's do a slightly better version of the Fig 11 target drill. Pistol training in the 1980 army was god awful. I learned so much more outside the army. Our civy drills for IPSC and others are watered down versions that the various high end groups use, but very much more dynamic than most qualifying shoots for LEO's. The LEO's who take their pistol craft seriously, are very, very good. The ones who treat it as just another thing they have to do once a year, are generally terrible and they and the ones that might shoot twice a year are the majority.

Most departments are not interested in spending money on firearms proficiency other than the bare minimum to avoid liability. There are ways for LEO's who want to shoot to get more service ammo, as the RCMP here allots about 200rds per member above the qualification shoot of 50 rds. LEO's are also restricted to only using service provided ammunition in their guns.

 

[RangerRay]

An Armed Society is a Polite Society…

While driving through Idaho, Montana and N Dakota recently, my wife commented how nice and polite everyone was.

I said when you’re in a place where everyone is armed, it’s a good idea to be polite!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Most LEO's do a slightly better version of the Fig 11 target drill. Pistol training in the 1980 army was god awful. I learned so much more outside the army. Our civy drills for IPSC and others are watered down versions that the various high end groups use, but very much more dynamic than most qualifying shoots for LEO's. The LEO's who take their pistol craft seriously, are very, very good. The ones who treat it as just another thing they have to do once a year, are generally terrible and they and the ones that might shoot twice a year are the majority.

Most departments are not interested in spending money on firearms proficiency other than the bare minimum to avoid liability. There are ways for LEO's who want to shoot to get more service ammo, as the RCMP here allots about 200rds per member above the qualification shoot of 50 rds. LEO's are also restricted to only using service provided ammunition in their guns.

I'm going to guess many don't use their alloted 200 rounds. So is it possible for an avid LEO to use those also?

 

[Haggis]

I'm going to guess many don't use their alloted 200 rounds. So is it possible for an avid LEO to use those also?

My agency gives 1000 per year for use in our duty firearm only for off duty practice. Officers can get more from the allotment of others who don't want to shoot. Range availability is a huge limiting factor. Local LEA ranges are always very busy. Some private indoor ranges don't meet our training standards ( i.e. too short, can't shoot kneeling or prone or barricaded). Some clubs won't allow holster use unless you take an in house course or are a Black Badge. Still others won't allow LEO to train off duty with prohibited firearms as a "fuck Trudeau" gesture.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I took my Sheriff friend out on a pistol training night. He said he shot more rounds in 1 night than 3 years as a Sheriff and learned a lot from our firearm instructor. I know some other LEO's that only shot the minimum amount which is around 50 rds a year. My instructor who competes shoots 50,000rds a year, I shoot on average about 500-1,000rds of pistol a year. When I was competing, I went to a training night about once a month and then was shooting 3,000rd a year. By your measure, most LEO's should have their guns taken away.

I spend about 4 hours of actual trigger time a year with the CAF. 2 for rifle, 2 for 9mm.

On my own, when I'm not deployed/at sea, I'm at Nova Tactical in the winter twice a month (I'm a fair weather shooter lol), in the summer at the DNR ranges twice a month; and from Sept - Dec I am hunting. So while not shooting, more than once per watch to a maximum of 3 times a fall, I am practicing safe firearms handling. And I don't feel like this is as much as I would like. Its also led to an addiction to hand and reloading.

What the CAF provides is dismal.

Side thought, it always surprises me when I am at the camp that the 4 - 6 rifles we have there have never just jumped and shot any folks. They always sit securely just waiting to be taken on another buggy ride.

 

[Haggis]

That brings up two points.

1. LEOs should shoot more if they’re going to be proficient
2. The “stand and fire at the Fig 11 target at the range” may be fine for muscle memory and shooting competitions, but I’d argue that it’s probably not how a situation would go down in real life.

That being said, I’m not sure what the pistol training regimen is like for LEOs but I know the CAF one is literally “can you put rounds on the target”.

The CCFR filed an injunction against the 2020 gun ban. During the court proceedings, an argument brought up was that the AR style rifle ban would deprive LEOs and CAF members of valuable and much needed off-duty practice with their privately owned AR platforms. The government successfully argued that LEOs and the CAF provided sufficient training and practice to meet their operational qualification and liability requirements without the need for off duty practice with the newly prohibited firearms. The ban was, obviously, upheld, with no exemption for LEOs or the CAF. Nor was there any LEO/CAF exemption during the implementation of the recent handgun ban, err, freeze.

I can't find the minutes online right now, but a few years ago (2012??) the QC CFO brought forth a proposal to ban IPSC under CCC s. 70(1)(a)(ii) (being trained or drilled in the use of arms). I should've downloaded them at the time.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I am a big fan of CCW, not so much open carry, partial as I would be to tempted to drop $2500 on a nice gun and another 500+ on some nice leather. If I am going to carry I want nice looking gun.

This is my wilderness carry gun for prospecting.

Modded it up to take .450 SMC. New leather.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The CCFR filed an injunction against the 2020 gun ban. During the court proceedings, an argument brought up was that the AR style rifle ban would deprive LEOs and CAF members of valuable and much needed off-duty practice with their privately owned AR platforms. The government successfully argued that LEOs and the CAF provided sufficient training and practice to meet their operational qualification and liability requirements without the need for off duty practice with the newly prohibited firearms. The ban was, obviously, upheld, with no exemption for LEOs or the CAF. Nor was there any LEO/CAF exemption during the implementation of the recent handgun ban, err, freeze.

I can't find the minutes online right now, but a few years ago (2012??) the QC CFO brought forth a proposal to ban IPSC under CCC s. 70(1)(a)(ii) (being trained or drilled in the use of arms). I should've downloaded them at the time.

And Game Wardens, now with .308 AR-10s

The Quebec goverment and agents hate gun owners.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I can't find the minutes online right now, but a few years ago (2012??) the QC CFO brought forth a proposal to ban IPSC under CCC s. 70(1)(a)(ii) (being trained or drilled in the use of arms). I should've downloaded them at the time.

I remembered that Saga, "Le fu*k yourselve Monsieur CFO"