The Glue Factory Corral, Tired Old Horses That Just Won't Die

[Michael OLeary]

It seems, of late, that certain topics keep cycling around the forums at Army.ca without conclusion. Driven more by emotion that reasoned debate, they never conclude and often end up as bitching sessions or open fights. Lately, it appears that some of these threads actually poison the generally helpful environment at Army.ca and undermine the very good work that has been done by all of the moderators and experienced members.

These topics, some of which I will mention below, often don't have a conclusion, solution, or compromise position of opinion. When a specific related point is being debated as a the focus of a thread, then good debate can occur, but as often the â Å“bitchyâ ? points are thrown in as an aside to barely related topics (and become an annoyance) or a thread simply devolves into internecine warfare.


The Airborne Regiment and its Disbandment â “ we can hate the government for it, but it's not coming back. Alternatively, we could make a rational stand by developing credible proposals for the reinstitution of new light/para units in a current force model and world political environment. But continually blasting the government for past decisions says we live in the past, not in the present preparing for the future.

The Liberals (or whoever is in Parliament) â “ ok, so we can collectively hate the ruling party. But they are the ones the public elected. We can rationally debate decisions made, without emotion, or we can simply blast the government for making decisions based on their own consideration of factors at the time. Perhaps the blame should properly be laid on the doorstep of the Minister of the moment, for failing in his duty to the department and convincing his peers that Defence is important. But simply slashing the Liberals (or whoever, since it was Dief ....Arrow ......) only sounds petulant.

Cadet attitudes â “ let's face it, they are kids. Imbued with a little knowledge, inspired by the attitudes of those who went before them in their Corps, they are only acting like the teens they are. There's no sense beating them up doing what comes naturally in emulation of what they believe soldiering is supposed to be like.

Politics of the military and the neo-pseudo-intellectuals â “ there's a reason why politics (among other subjects) was not discussed in Messes, and wading into aimless debates with punks fresh from PoliSci 101 doesn't help the forum. The kids won't back down, and reasoning with them just splashes the crap on everyone. There's probably no simple solution to that one if we want to maintain a political forum.

Scott Taylor â “ we've seen the results of simply slamming him ..... a much better approach would be to take a â Å“quote â “ counterpointâ ? approach based on editions of E de C. And staying within the realm of the factual based on personal knowledge, rather than emotional opinion.

Bashing NDHQ â “ could we trade simply slamming its existence with rational debate on the usefulness of selected directorates?

Officer bashing â “ it's surprising how often someone slips in a snide, or openly hostile, comment directed towards officers in general. I hate to think we may be setting an example for new recruits with such opinions.

The Reg v. Res Debate â “ personal opinions are one things, displays of open hatred quite another, I think we all notice those and quite often it would be best for someone on the same â Å“side of the fenceâ ? as the poster to quietly admonish and ask if they have a factual point to make.


A lot of work has been done to establish and maintain the credibility of Army.ca, and to make it a premiere 'go-to' site for advice and information on the Canadian military. We should take the same care in treating some of these â Å“tired old horsesâ ? that we did with questions about snipers, JTF-2 and a few of the other topics that were early thorns in open debate.

I offer these comments up simply as food for thought. I am not suggesting we kill discussions in these areas, but only that perhaps the approach and emotion filled discourse we have occasionally seen may not be in the best interests of our continuing achievement with the forums.

My $0.02.

 

[CivU]

"wading into aimless debates with punks fresh from PoliSci 101 doesn't help the forum. The kids won't back down"

Perhaps stating that generally ignoring and criticizing without merit the valid opinions of educated youth should also be included in such a list. It seems a common reaction to a difference of opinion by older members who feel that their age warrants more respect, regardless of the knowledge and experience held by those younger than them...

 

[Mike Bobbitt]

Excellent post, thank-you Michael. I think we sometimes find ourselves drawn into unresolvable debates like those you mention above. While there's nothing wrong with revisiting the same issue, we need to be aware that everyone is simply not going to agree on some topics.

No need to resort to name calling or hurt feelings, I think in these cases we can agree to disagree or take it offline.


Cheers
Mike

 

[Britney Spears]

An idea: Some other board enforce a very strict "no personaly attacks, no swearing, etc" policy on their regular forums, but keep a seperate forum, call it the pit, where the slip-on's come off and people can vent a little, with the understanding that not everything need be level headed debate. I understand that you might think of it as a waste of resources, but its an idea that works fairly well else where.

 

[Torlyn]

"wading into aimless debates with punks fresh from PoliSci 101 doesn't help the forum. The kids won't back down"

Perhaps stating that generally ignoring and criticizing without merit the valid opinions of educated youth should also be included in such a list. It seems a common reaction to a difference of opinion by older members who feel that their age warrants more respect, regardless of the knowledge and experience held by those younger than them...

Been a while since I've said to ya, CivU, but I agree. 

T

 

[Mike Bobbitt]

An idea: Some other board enforce a very strict "no personaly attacks, no swearing, etc" policy on their regular forums, but keep a seperate forum, call it the pit, where the slip-on's come off and people can vent a little, with the understanding that not everything need be level headed debate. I understand that you might think of it as a waste of resources, but its an idea that works fairly well else where.

Not a bad idea actually. If a thread goes totally off the rails, it could simply be moved to the pit to take it out of mainstream viewing...

WRT the age issue, I'll try not to set things off too much... However I think crusty old buggers who dismiss the thoughts of students are as bountiful here as young scholars who express their researched opinions with the exuberance of actual experience. It's my opinion that both groups need to recognize their hand in this and take responsibility for fixing it.

The point of this whole thread is that we have gone wrong here a few times, and need to make things right. That's not limited to any age group, service status, component/trade or membership level, as I think we've seen it across the board from a small percentage.

 

[Pieman]

  It's my opinion that both groups need to recognize their hand in this and take responsibility for fixing it.

I totally agree with you on that point. Both sides of these kinds of arguments tend to get narrow minded, simply because neither side is listening nor respecting the opinion of the other.

With respect to the 'Pit' suggestion, I have seen that work well on other boards too. I also have seen other boards use the chat room as a way of working things out. Should a topic get heated and out of control, they two parties 'take it outside' and meet in the chat room. Not sure how that would pan out on this community, but it seems to do the trick in others.

 

[winchable]

Not a bad idea actually. If a thread goes totally off the rails, it could simply be moved to the pit to take it out of mainstream viewing...

I work for a company that has just such a forum on our website and I can say that it would not work here.
There is an air of professionalism on this board that is entirely unique to these forums, to allow a "venting area" is  cop out on our behalf.
We are responsible for maintaining the relative peace on the boards and the rule as it stands is "take it to PM's." is the best way of going about it.
Any forum would undoubtably sow feelings of dislike that are easily settled if people are forced to follow conduct guidelines in public, however, if we let them go at a free-for-all in one particular section, it would most certainly spill out and then we'd have a whole new kind of problem.

Letting the gloves (or slipons in some cases) come off is what PM's are for, we still have many visitors on this site and they don't need to see our dirty laundry.
Any forum of this nature is something that I would most certainly not support as I belive it would be a serious blow to the professional nature of the forum.

Sorry to go off there, Like I said, I have seen such a forum before and it is really, really, really not in line with this site.

 

[muskrat89]

I agree, Che. Forcing people to argue politely in public can't be such a bad thing... 

 

[Britney Spears]

Well, it's not neccesary to have a "pit", but if you want to force people to be polite, then set the bar higher and enforce it. I've never had to sling any personal insults to anyone here (although undoubtably some deserved it), no one else should have to in a civillized discussion either.

Regarding "professionalism", My concept of ops is a little different. I got my hands full already being professional at the real job, and I'm not above a little banter on my off hour, which is when I browse this forum. Its quite clear that the views expressed on this board are from annonymous indivuduals on the internet, and do not represent any official CF/DND channel of communication is it really neccesary to be so starchy about everything? Some of us are here for fun, you know.....

 

[muskrat89]

So, in your opinion, the Conduct Guidelines don't get enforced at all, or just consistently?  Also, "polite" was probably a poor choice of word - maybe "civil" is better.


As for "fun" - you sure have some strange ideas about entertainment 

 

[Britney Spears]

What I mean is that any form of personal insult, or attack, by anybody, should be forbiden, or told to "take it to the pit". That includes crusty old guys calling the cadets names, jeering at their lack of military experience, calling people "idiots" because they happen to have 1 spaghetti bar, MODS, everything. These things start because someone slings an insult at someone else, and its not always the idiot who starts it.  Some idiots obviously DO deserve a chewing out or two,  but that wouldn't be civil now, would it?

Of course, obvious spammers, trolls, and people who can't type should be taken care of by the mods in good order.

As for "fun" - you sure have some strange ideas about entertainment

Well, obviously, I derive no material profit from imparting my wisdom here, so why else should I do so if not for the pleasure of your company?

 

[muskrat89]

so why else should I do so if not for the pleasure of your company?

So we can look at your avatar, of course....

 

[Britney Spears]

Well, let me tell you, after a long hard day of shootingup talibans for fun and topless mudwrestling, I like to think I can toss out a few posts off the record. We're not on the parade square or in front of the camera anymore eh?

 

[vangemeren]

What is going to happen to the dead horses that keep getting beaten. Are they getting deleted? If we find a beaten horse, do we report it? I find a lot of dead horses in the politics forum. As soon as a topic is locked/deleted, another thread under a different name but same topic starts up.

 

[mdh]

Life wouldn't be worth living unless we could slag each other in public, cheers, mdh  :threat:

 

[bossi]

What is going to happen to the dead horses that keep getting beaten ... ?

Dakota tribal wisdom says that when you discover you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount. However, we often try other strategies with dead horses, including the following:

1. Buying a stronger whip.
2. Changing riders.
3. Say things like, "This is the way we have always ridden this horse."
4. Appointing a committee to study the horse.
5. Arranging to visit other sites to see how they ride dead horses.
6. Increasing the standards to ride dead horses.
7. Appointing a tiger team to revive the dead horse.
8. Creating a training session to increase our riding ability.
9. Comparing the state of dead horses in todays environment.
10. Change the requirements declaring that "This horse is not dead."
11. Hire contractors to ride the dead horse.
12. Harnessing several dead horses together for increased speed.
13. Declaring that "No horse is too dead to beat."
14. Providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance.
15. Do a Cost Analysis study to see if contractors can ride it cheaper.
16. Purchase a product to make dead horses run faster.
17. Declare the horse is "better, faster and cheaper" dead.
18. Form a quality circle to find uses for dead horses.
19. Revisit the performance requirements for horses.
20. Say this horse was procured with cost as an independent variable.
21. Promote the dead horse to a supervisory position.

 

[big_johnson1]

I'll go with #4, 11, 15 and 21.

And a side of #3..

 

[George Wallace]

"wading into aimless debates with punks fresh from PoliSci 101 doesn't help the forum. The kids won't back down"

Perhaps stating that generally ignoring and criticizing without merit the valid opinions of educated youth should also be included in such a list. It seems a common reaction to a difference of opinion by older members who feel that their age warrants more respect, regardless of the knowledge and experience held by those younger than them...

Excuse me CivU.....you seem to have things ass backwards here.  Shouldn't you 'younger, less educated, less experienced' members be giving the older, more experienced and more educated a little more respect.  Who have your teachers been?  your elders, or did you learn by osmosis?  

This is where these Dead Horses come from - pompous trolls trying to impress the world with their superior intelligence, and then having a hissy fit when they can't bend those who have BTDT to their way of thinking.  :

Torlyn may agree with you, but personally I find your comment pompous and insulting.

GW  

 

[Slim]

Torlyn may agree with you, but personally I find your comment pompous and insulting.

I quite agree with you GW. How many times have the staff had to PM a "younger" member with a "heavy suggestion" to slow down some?!

CIVU, I think you need to take a good hard look at the profiles of some of the people that your talking with. These guys and gals were soldiering while you were still only watching it on TV and have COUNTLESS MAN YEARS of experience in BTDT. They know exactly what they're talking about...Give them their due and maybe you'll learn something here.

take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth! Words to live buy.

Slim