The Capital Punishment Debate

[vonGarvin]

Thank you, Brutus, but I must admit that the thought that we as a society must execute people still disturbs me, just as it disturbed me when I saw enemies of ours killed overseas.  Not so much for pity for them, but that things came to where it was necessary to do so. 

This is why I am utterly opposed to so-called "humane" methods of execution.  We as a society must never get comfortable with the idea, necessary though it may be.

 

[ballz]

This should be changed IMO.
Too many "plea bargins" and dirty deals.

We're doing it wrong  :nod:

Something I never considered, but just having the death penalty available may mean that although we end up plea bargaining, we may end up being able to use it as bargaining power to put criminals away for longer.

Perhaps if, for first degree, the penalty were "minimum life (25 years), maximum death," and the death penalty were available, and "true life" were available, we may be able to get people to plead guilty to first degree murder if we offer life/25 years or true life, instead of having to offer "2nd degree" because we lack the evidence to prove it's premeditated.

If it was in fact premeditated, the murderer might be more inclined to accept 25 years to avoid the death penalty, instead of fighting for 10-25 because 25 is the worst they can get anyway....

Thoughts?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Plea bargins suck.


Get rid of plea bargins. No dropping from 1st degree murder to manslaughter if buddy agrees to rat out his friend.

 

[OldSolduer]

Plea bargins suck.


Get rid of plea bargins. No dropping from 1st degree murder to manslaughter if buddy agrees to rat out his friend.

Much easier said than done. The Crown depends on plea bargains as the burden of proof is on the Crown, and they may not possess the required evidence to convict on First Degree.

 

[mariomike]

Where deterrence fails, it's impossible to argue that murders who are put do death can re offend.

"If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call."

John McAdams - Marquette University/Department of Political Science, on deterrence

 

[Brad Sallows]

I appologize for picking one thing out of your post, but this is one issue that we haven't really discussed.

I agree that the death penalty IS a deterrance, but i don't think it's a very good one...

...which is why I originally wrote "Execution is not general deterrence; it is specific deterrence".  "Specific" means "the offender", not "everyone else".  State-sanctioned killing as an object lesson to others strikes me as distasteful policy, even if there were data to back it up (which does not appear to be the case).  The simple threat of imprisonment seems to work on most people who are of a mind to be deterred.  But execution works admirably to prevent an unquestionably guilty person of high likelihood to commit the same offence from ever doing so.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Not picking on anyone here. It's a good discussion.

However, I think Brutus has it in his mind to win. He is not going to leave any stone unturned until his protagonists concede defeat, which is good. Unfortunately, the discussion has gone beyond the simple question.

It WAS getting circular, it has evolved somewhat (slightly), if we can continue it as such it may survive.

I don't think, personally, there is much more to say. Kill them, or don't. Nuances be damned. I have land in Florida for anyone that thinks revenge and retribution are not basic human qualities that should be held onto and promoted.

To forget our past, allows us to repeat it.

 

[Brutus]

Not picking on anyone here. It's a good discussion.

However, I think Brutus has it in his mind to win. He is not going to leave any stone unturned until his protagonists concede defeat, which is good. Unfortunately, the discussion has gone beyond the simple question.

It WAS getting circular, it has evolved somewhat (slightly), if we can continue it as such it may survive.

I don't think, personally, there is much more to say. Kill them, or don't. Nuances be damned. I have land in Florida for anyone that thinks revenge and retribution are not basic human qualities that should be held onto and promoted.

To forget our past, allows us to repeat it.

I am rather competitive....

Truth be told I am not trying to change anyone's mind. Everyone here has a rational basis for their views, and those are tough to change (and I'm not trying). I admit I feel rather passionate about this topic, and hope I haven't beaten you all over the head with it too much.

I just really like a good (respectful) debate.


Brad: interesting distinction between general and specific deterance. I hadn't considered that. If you're right, the stats I posted have far less significance.

 

[Ex-SHAD]

Hanging, since it was historically the only authorized method of execution in the Dominion of Canada.

 

[marshall sl]

Speaking as a CO with 28 years in.At my Institution we have give or take 80 lifers. That's 80 Convicts that should be dead! Hang Them!!!

 

[pontcanna]

And I have seven "dead men walking" on my caseload, some of whom have been in the community for decades and are extremely low risk. Guess we should kill 'em now, just to be fair.

 

[Ex-SHAD]

And I have seven "dead men walking" on my caseload, some of whom have been in the community for decades and are extremely low risk. Guess we should kill 'em now, just to be fair.

Considering the unreasonable tax burden placed on the Citizenry of Canada by lifers and violent criminals, it’s both reasonable and fair to have these men put to death.

 

[Container]

And I have seven "dead men walking" on my caseload, some of whom have been in the community for decades and are extremely low risk. Guess we should kill 'em now, just to be fair.

What qualifies these men as "dead men walking"? If they meet the relatively stiff requirements we suggest in this thread- not every murderer and rapist gets the penalty as proposed.

By virture of being low risk they already seem like they wouldnt be a candidate. Predators are never low risk.

 

[mariomike]

And I have seven "dead men walking" on my caseload, some of whom have been in the community for decades and are extremely low risk. Guess we should kill 'em now, just to be fair.

"in the community for decades"?
How long did they serve?

If you treat and transport their victims from crime scenes, I think it may influence a person's opinion on the subject of punishment.

 

[Sapplicant]

This is why I am utterly opposed to so-called "humane" methods of execution.

Sometimes these "humane" methods don't work so well.

Romell Broom's execution last year was stopped by Gov. Ted Strickland after an execution team tried for two hours to find a suitable vein to administer a lethal injection.

Broom has said he was stuck with needles at least 18 times, with pain so intense that he cried and screamed.

Which then transitions to

He was sentenced to die for the 1984 rape and slaying of 14-year-old Tryna Middleton after abducting her in Cleveland as she walked home from a Friday night football game with two friends.

Needle vs.  :bullet:


:bullet: wins, every time.

 

[OldSolduer]

There is a "dead man walking" here in Winnipeg. This ne'er do well was in custody for a number of years for making "movies" with underage females, one of whom is the daughter of a high profile former/still gang member.
What do you think his chances are on the street? The law of the street doesn't recognize concepts such as procedural fairness etc.....

 

[PMedMoe]

Broom has said he was stuck with needles at least 18 times, with pain so intense that he cried and screamed.

Oh, boo hoo.  :crybaby:

I wonder how 14-year-old Tryna Middleton felt when she was raped and killed by him?

 

[GAP]

There is a "dead man walking" here in Winnipeg. This ne'er do well was in custody for a number of years for making "movies" with underage females, one of whom is the daughter of a high profile former/still gang member.
What do you think his chances are on the street? The law of the street doesn't recognize concepts such as procedural fairness etc.....

Is that the one that the cops announced was getting out this week.....?  Think red flag......waving....yahoo!!!

 

[OldSolduer]

Is that the one that the cops announced was getting out this week.....?  Think red flag......waving....yahoo!!!

Yes,  that's him.

I had the dubious pleasure to supervise him while he was in PC.

 

[pontcanna]

"in the community for decades"? How long did they serve?

Mostly between 10 and 25 years.