The Capital Punishment Debate

[mariomike]

Looks like supplies are running low in the U.S.:
"Shortage of lethal injection drug halts US executions":
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8030839/Shortage-of-lethal-injection-drug-halts-US-executions.html

 

[Brutus]

Execution is not general deterrence; it is specific deterrence.  And at some level, confinement and restraint also become cruel and unusual.

I appologize for picking one thing out of your post, but this is one issue that we haven't really discussed.

I agree that the death penalty IS a deterrance, but i don't think it's a very good one. To try and figure out what kind of deterrence CP would have in Canada, we can look at the deterance factor in the closest comparison we have to our society, the US.

Of the top 10 murder States in the US (Lousiana, New Mexico, Maryland, Tennesse, Alabama, Mississippi, Missouri, S. Carolina, Michigan, Oklahoma), only one does not have the death penalty (Michigan). Of the top 20 murder rate States, again, only one does not have the Death penalty. Of the bottom 10 States in murder rate, 6 don't have the Death Penalty. Of the bottom 20, 10 don't have the Death Penalty.

Combined, Death Penalty States have a higher rate of murder than non Death Penalty States. In 2007, DP States have a 42% higher murder rate than non-death penalty States. From 2003-2007 the difference remained in the 40% range, 2000-2002 it was in the 30's, 1995-1999 it bounced in from the 20's to the 40's, and from 1990-1994 it bounced from as low as 4% to as high as 17%.

But the end result is that, in every year from 1990-2007, the States with the Death Penalty had a higher murder rate than those without. The Death Penalty is not serving as a deterant in the US. Why would anyone think Canada would be different?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

editted to add link

 

[KevinB]

You cannot use that in isolation, you also need to look at the demographics in both poverty and population density.

As well as Border States (at least Southern Border) have much higher rates due to both Drug and Alien Smuggling.

 

[Brutus]

You cannot use that in isolation, you also need to look at the demographics in both poverty and population density.

As well as Border States (at least Southern Border) have much higher rates due to both Drug and Alien Smuggling.

Of course there are other factors that affect murder rates. But if we are discussing the Death Penalty, and one of the chief arguments for it is it's deterant factor, then measuring the effectiveness of this deterant must be part of the discusion.

Does population density affect murder rate? Yes, lower density states have a lower murder rate. Does poverty affect the murder rate? Yes, the more affluent a state, the less likely it's citizens will resort to murder.

But to dismiss the stats that clearly show that Capital Punishment in the States has had NO positive deterant factor because there are OTHER factors that affect murder rates is dishonest. In fact, if you could draw any conclusion from the stats, you would say that NO death penalty is a deterant to murder.

 

[vonGarvin]

But to dismiss the stats that clearly show that Capital Punishment in the States has had NO positive deterant factor because there are OTHER factors that affect murder rates is dishonest. In fact, if you could draw any conclusion from the stats, you would say that NO death penalty is a deterant to murder.

Your logic is faulty.  Given the other prevelant factors, can you say what the murder rates would be had there been no death penalty?



That's what I thought.


But it's not just about deterrence.  It's also about punishment. 

 

[Brutus]

Your logic is faulty.  Given the other prevalent factors, can you say what the murder rates would be had there been no death penalty?



That's what I thought.


But it's not just about deterrence.  It's also about punishment.

No one can.

But, of the poorer states, the ones WITH capital punishment tend to have higher murder rates.

West Virginia, the 2ND poorest State in the US, has the 23rd highest Murder rate, and no Capital Punishment.

Maryland, the richest State in the US, has the 3rd highest murder rate, and HAS Capital Punishment.

So we have a poor State with a modest murder rate and no CP, and a very rich state with CP and a very high murder rate.

The correlation between capital punishment and murder rate suggests that NO Capital Punishment is a deterant, and Cp is not.

As for the punishment factor, I think 30 years of hard time is far worse than 10 followed by execution.

edit:

i understand the draw of CP, I used to be for it. But to argue for it using deterrence as an example of it's effectiveness is a bad idea. It just isn't there. I agree that CP satisfies the populace that the killer will never kill again, and there's no getting around that. But I think the driving force behind most proponents of CP is the vengeance factor, and like it or not, this is not an acceptable factor in our justice system. We can change this, sure, but as it stands, vengeance is not something the Candian Justice system considers. The US system does, but I question the motives of anyone who looks at their system, and especially their recidivism, and wishes to emulate their system.

 

[vonGarvin]

No one can.

But, of the poorer states, the ones WITH capital punishment tend to have higher murder rates.

West Virginia, the 2ND poorest State in the US, has the 23rd highest Murder rate, and no Capital Punishment.

Maryland, the richest State in the US, has the 3rd highest murder rate, and HAS Capital Punishment.

So we have a poor State with a modest murder rate and no CP, and a very rich state with CP and a very high murder rate.

The correlation between capital punishment and murder rate suggests that NO Capital Punishment is a deterant, and Cp is not.

As for the punishment factor, I think 30 years of hard time is far worse than 10 followed by execution.

edit:

i understand the draw of CP, I used to be for it. But to argue for it using deterrence as an example of it's effectiveness is a bad idea. It just isn't there. I agree that CP satisfies the populace that the killer will never kill again, and there's no getting around that. But I think the driving force behind most proponents of CP is the vengeance factor, and like it or not, this is not an acceptable factor in our justice system. We can change this, sure, but as it stands, vengeance is not something the Candian Justice system considers. The US system does, but I question the motives of anyone who looks at their system, and especially their recidivism, and wishes to emulate their system.

I disagree with your logic.  EDIT TO EXPLAIN:  West Virginia is a mostly rural state, no?  Could other factors talk to why the murder rate is lower?  Closer family bonds?  Maryland is mostly urban, no?  Would the crowded cities affect group psychology and be a factor in the high murder rates there?
We have a poor state with a dispersed population compared to Maryland, with a lower rate, and a rich (on average, but is it proportional?) population, but a more clustered setting? 
That's what I mean that there are more factors that just saying that the absence of CP in one place and the presence of it in another is good enough reasoning to abolish it.

But I do understand your opposition to CP, and you raise very good points about it being vengeance.  I offer that it is a necessary evil, just as I believe that it's a necessary evil to inject a poor Talib slob with hot molten lead because he's planting a bomb.  It's necessary, of course, but when we have to kill, at war or not, it's a failure in humanity.  Even though, I feel personally that once in a generation, there is a criminal convicted of something so evil, that there is no worth in keeping him or her alive, and the mantra that "justice must be seen" demands of us to end their lives, publically and brutally, but not to the point of sadism.  Hence my advocation that we use ropes to hang them by the neck until they are dead.  In short: our society must be satisfied that these predators will hunt no more, and will drain our public purse no more than the cost of 13 feet of hemp rope.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Where deterrence fails, it's impossible to argue that murders who are put do death can re offend.

 

[vonGarvin]

That's true, Grimaldus, but I would offer that very few murderers be sentenced to death.  There are those who commit their crimes in the heat of passion, etc.  It's the predators whom we must execute, IMHO.

 

[KevinB]

Recitivism in predator types is very high - and that for Capital Punishment is the greatest point.

Back to Brutus -- in W.Va. they have rather liberal gun laws and concealed carry, in the People's Republic of Maryland guns are more stringestly regulated and no real concealed carry exists.

Jumping into Self Defense issues for a second, down here, states that have adopted "Shall Issue" Concealed Carry policies the murder rates and violent crime has decreased, hence a potential "immediate capital punishment" sentence being instituted.

 

[Brutus]

Recidivism in predator types is very high - and that for Capital Punishment is the greatest point.

Back to Brutus -- in W.Va. they have rather liberal gun laws and concealed carry, in the People's Republic of Maryland guns are more stringently regulated and no real concealed carry exists.

Jumping into Self Defense issues for a second, down here, states that have adopted "Shall Issue" Concealed Carry policies the murder rates and violent crime has decreased, hence a potential "immediate capital punishment" sentence being instituted.

Now THIS is a very good deterant to murder....

The stats are admitidly murky on Capital Punishment and deterrence. Clearly I cannot effectively argue that CP is an aggravating factor, but I think I have shown that it is not a real significant deterant. So, would having CP make murder worse? Maybe, but I have no way of statistically backing that up. But I have yet to see any empirical evidence that it helps the situation.

One thing I think most can agree on - poverty is a DEFINATE aggravating factor. The poorer your immediate surroundings, the more likely you are to be the victim of the ultimate violent crime.

And I would love it if we had licences to carry concealed weapons here.

 

[OldSolduer]

Brutus, your assertion that poverty is an aggravating factor is good, but it is only one factor. When a family of five siblings, and four are hard working, law abiding, but still poverty stricken, but do not resort to crime, but the fifth one is constantly in trouble, then poverty cannot be blamed.
When I was in Corrections, we hade plenty of inmates who were not rich, but came from families who were not poverty stricken.

Read "Inside the Criminal Mind" By Dr Stanton Samenow. It will give you some insights into the criminal mind.

 

[Jarnhamar]

That's true, Grimaldus, but I would offer that very few murderers be sentenced to death. There are those who commit their crimes in the heat of passion, etc.  It's the predators whom we must execute, IMHO.

This should be changed IMO.
Too many "plea bargins" and dirty deals.

Karla Leanne Homolka, also known as Karla Leanne Teale (born 4 May 1970 in Port Credit, Ontario, Canada), is a Canadian convict. She attracted worldwide media attention when she was convicted of manslaughter following a plea bargain in the 1991 and 1992 rape-murders of two Ontario teenage girls, Leslie Mahaffy and Kristen French, as well as the rape and death of her own sister Tammy.[2]

Paul Bernardo was arrested in 1993 and in 1995 was convicted of the two teenagers' murders. He received life in prison, the full maximum sentence allowed in Canada. Homolka, however, "portrayed herself as the innocent victim of a murderous monster. [In 1993], she struck a deal with prosecutors (later dubbed the "Deal with the Devil") and pleaded guilty to manslaughter in the deaths in exchange for a 12-year prison sentence. But videotapes of the crimes, found after the plea bargain, showed her to be a more active participant.  La Presse claimed that Homolka was back in Ontario studying Law and living with her partner Luka Magnotta.[5][6]

We're doing it wrong  :nod:

 

[Brutus]

Brutus, your assertion that poverty is an aggravating factor is good, but it is only one factor. When a family of five siblings, and four are hard working, law abiding, but still poverty stricken, but do not resort to crime, but the fifth one is constantly in trouble, then poverty cannot be blamed.
When I was in Corrections, we hade plenty of inmates who were not rich, but came from families who were not poverty stricken.

Read "Inside the Criminal Mind" By Dr Stanton Samenow. It will give you some insights into the criminal mind.

Oh for sure.

In the end, murder is the act of the individual, for his own reasons. I in no way want to suggest that rich people don't kill, or that poverty is an excuse. These are factors to look at when looking at the problem as a whole, not when looking at the act of the individual.

Murderers of the serial or cold blooded type have an ability to kill that no one else posseses. They don't have the psychological fail-safe that normal people do. The 'heat of passion' killer doesn't worry me (hopefully the punishment and some rehab will prevent further crimes), but these other animals there is no cure for.

I just disagree with most here on how to cure the animal.

 

[vonGarvin]

That is a case of a case gone wrong, IMHO.  She is a predator, who should still be behind bars.  So, in a case like hers....

 

[vonGarvin]

I just disagree with most here on how to cure the animal.

To be honest, I don't see it as a method to cure the animal, but rather to rid us of it forever.

 

[Brutus]

To be honest, I don't see it as a method to cure the animal, but rather to rid us of it forever.

potato/potahto

 

[vonGarvin]

Well, actually, it's more "Potato/Monkey Wrench" in the difference. I believe that most criminals can be rehabilitated.  Some can't.  Of those who can't, some are that "dangerous" that they ought to be put down.  That's all.

 

[Kat Stevens]

It says something about a society when it cares more for it's pets than it's citizens.  A rabid dog is put down quickly and efficiently.  A mad dog human is left to languish in prison for years... sometimes as many as 7 in Canada.

 

[Brutus]

Well, actually, it's more "Potato/Monkey Wrench" in the difference. I believe that most criminals can be rehabilitated.  Some can't.  Of those who can't, some are that "dangerous" that they ought to be put down.  That's all.

Of all the arguments FOR capital punishment, this is the most compelling. To me.

I think the first step to reform of our system should be the removal of ALL luxuries from our jails. No tv, no movies. Yes to books and anything that can better the inmate. No to anything that is strictly entertainment. A lot of criminals have it better in prison than out. That's pathetic.

A gym, a library, a church and your cell.