The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)

[PuckChaser]

A final point for Good2Golf- I don't consider 200 SOF, helicopters and LCMR dets (since they're there too) to be us being there "in force".

200 SOF pers is a significant commitment and significant combat power. Just because they don't bring a HQ of 150 pers, don't count out the force multiplication.

 

[Altair]

200 SOF pers is a significant commitment and significant combat power. Just because they don't bring a HQ of 150 pers, don't count out the force multiplication.

Training power?

 

[Jarnhamar]

If need be why not?

Responsibility to protect civilians>raping looting soldiers from a undisciplined force.

Unless that's being too simple but I don't see how even the UN could blame Canadians acting under those conditions.

Because Canadian soldiers shooting Africans wouldn't fit well with the peacekeeper image the liberals are trying to cultivate despite the caveat about us using force to protect lives and dignity.

I doubt many on this forum would hesitate to obey fire control orders and engage a bunch if scumbags raping and murdering unarmed locals but what happens when the image of a smooshed baby hits the news with the caption that a Canadian soldier did that?  Regardless if it's a lie or not we know people don't bother reading past headlines.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

200 SOF pers is a significant commitment and significant combat power. Just because they don't bring a HQ of 150 pers, don't count out the force multiplication.

:

Alright, I'll spell this out.

When I say "in force" I meant a BG-Bde level force with artillery, armour, etc ad nauseum to conduct linear contiguous operations.

 

[Altair]

Because Canadian soldiers shooting Africans wouldn't fit well with the peacekeeper image the liberals are trying to cultivate despite the caveat about us using force to protect lives and dignity.

I doubt many on this forum would hesitate to obey fire control orders and engage a bunch if scumbags raping and murdering unarmed locals but what happens when the image of a smooshed baby hits the news with the caption that a Canadian soldier did that?  Regardless if it's a lie or not we know people don't bother reading past headlines.

Sounds like a political problem.

 

[jmt18325]

The way I remember it going down was LPC starts mumbling about peacekeeping. Numbers around 1000.

Then NATO starts mumbling about troops in eastern NATO countries. Canada's name is brought up. Obama shows up talking about world needing more canada and for Canada to step up. Canada announces that 450 troops heading to Latvia.

I'm just going off memory so if anyone has a more accurate timeline feel free to correct me.

From the Toronto Star:

Retired military officer and defence analyst George Petrolekas has told the Star that the military could sustain a new deployment of between 600 and 1,000 soldiers, in addition to the commitments it’s fulfilling now.

Vance said additional details would be coming soon about the just-announced deployment to Latvia, where Canada has pledged to supply 450 soldiers to assist with a NATO mission to bolster its presence in Eastern Europe.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/07/14/canadian-troops-headed-to-africa-top-general-says.html

 

[Good2Golf]

...A final point for Good2Golf- I don't consider 200 SOF, helicopters and LCMR dets (since they're there too) to be us being there "in force".

Ah, I see --you're a "quantity" guy, not a "quality" guy.

G2G

 

[medicineman]

Sounds like a political problem.

Might well become a personal problem if someone figured out YOU MAY have been a person responsible for shooting some black folks, baddies or not, and then stuck your mugshot up on the "Black Lives Matter" homepage.

How's your home alarm system?

MM

 

[Altair]

From the Toronto Star:

Retired military officer and defence analyst George Petrolekas has told the Star that the military could sustain a new deployment of between 600 and 1,000 soldiers, in addition to the commitments it’s fulfilling now.

Vance said additional details would be coming soon about the just-announced deployment to Latvia, where Canada has pledged to supply 450 soldiers to assist with a NATO mission to bolster its presence in Eastern Europe.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/07/14/canadian-troops-headed-to-africa-top-general-says.html

I should have made a bet with him as well. 200 bucks.

He covered his bases well. 600-1000. Pretty big buffer.

 

[Altair]

Might well become a personal problem if someone figured out YOU MAY have been a person responsible for shooting some black folks, baddies or not, and then stuck your mugshot up on the "Black Lives Matter" homepage.

How's your home alarm system?

MM

Would be odd to go after a black guy on a black Lives matter homepage but sure.  [lol:

If it's the fear of some whiny protest group back home that stops a commander from saving a bunch of aid works from gang rape then that person should not be in command.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Ah, I see --you're a "quantity" guy, not a "quality" guy.

G2G

I'm neither/nor. There's a difference in fighting a linear contiguous op and doing training/assymetric. It's terminology. 

 

[The Bread Guy]

If it's the fear of some whiny protest group back home that stops a commander from saving a bunch of aid works from gang rape then that person should not be in command.

It may not be quite that simple in the age of international social media -- and it's not just a commander's problem.  Google "Strategic Corporal" for further insights ...

 

[medicineman]

Would be odd to go after a black guy on a black Lives matter homepage but sure.  [lol:

If it's the fear of some whiny protest group back home that stops a commander from saving a bunch of aid works from gang rape then that person should not be in command.

Seen weirder things in my life.  It all about optics and how some creature from AQ or BH or the local Mob can make it look to the rest of the world...and many of them do a lot better job at making us look bad to the locals and the world than we do of making them look bad.  They leak someone's name or face out these days, to paraphrase REM, it's the end of the world as you know it, guilty or not.

MM

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm neither/nor. There's a difference in fighting a linear contiguous op and doing training/assymetric. It's terminology.

You hadn't defined "in force" yet.  So are you going by "linear, contiguous" as characteristics of being "in force?"  So Force-in-Place? Our troops on one side of the FEBA?  Something more "effective" than FID/embedded-training/ISR/STA?

So how many of these conventional linear/contiguous CAF members do we need to be "in force?" ???

G2G

 

[Jarnhamar]

Sounds like a political problem.

Only our ROEs are decided by politics including last minute changes so you could find yourself being ordered to sit down, watch the murders taking place and start taking notes for your upcoming VA claim.

Would be odd to go after a black guy on a black Lives matter homepage but sure.  [lol:

They would probably call you an Oreo or something. Black on the outside white on the inside. The same way FN call FN CF members apples. There's some pretty brutal stories about how minorities in the CF had "their people" turn on them and how vicious they can get. Just look at the abuse black americans get when they make the mistake of suggesting #AllLivesMatter.

If it's the fear of some whiny protest group back home that stops a commander from saving a bunch of aid works from gang rape then that person should not be in command.

That's what you're not understanding. If the politicians who give the CF their orders make the call then the commander legally has to obey. If the Liberals decide last minute they don't want videos of Canadians blasting South Africans then the soldiers on the ground may very well get orders to "go check a village 5KMs away" or something.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

You hadn't defined "in force" yet.  So are you going by "linear, contiguous" as characteristics of being "in force?"  So Force-in-Place? Our troops on one side of the FEBA?  Something more "effective" than FID/embedded-training/ISR/STA?

So how many of these conventional linear/contiguous CAF members do we need to be "in force?" ???

G2G

Not that it matters at all to this conversation, but yes, I defined "in force" for that particular example as being a linear, contiguous force. You're reading too much into a basic statement that our force in Syria/Iraq isn't numerically large. If you want to have a conversation about force packaging than fine, but you should probably start a different thread. Than we can discuss LOO's, force packages, and how ISIS in a level three insurgency vice level two insurgency requires different capabilities.

Aside from that, take it as a basic statement.

 

[PuckChaser]

:

Alright, I'll spell this out.

When I say "in force" I meant a BG-Bde level force with artillery, armour, etc ad nauseum to conduct linear contiguous operations.

Sorry I didn't read your mind.

We're not going to a PSO with that either. There's no way 600 pers is going to be a robust BG. We needed 2000 people to support that, another 700 for tac aviation support. 600 is a regular Army Coy at most.

 

[mariomike]

Just look at the abuse black americans get when they make the mistake of suggesting #AllLivesMatter.

Even closer to home. Couple of days ago at DVP and Lawrence calling a Toronto Police Officer an "Uncle Tom" for writing him a parking ticket.

But he suggests the officer used his vehicle to block him from getting into his car and leaving because he “thought I was just a regular n-----.”

The man also repeatedly refers to the officer, who apparently is black, as an “Uncle Tom,” a derogatory term for “a black person who is eager to win the approval of white people and willing to co-operate with them,” according to Merriam-Webster.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/09/14/city-investigating-workers-video-of-dust-up-over-disabled-parking-spot.html

 

[Altair]

Even closer to home. Couple of days ago at DVP and Lawrence calling a Toronto Police Officer an "Uncle Tom" for writing him a parking ticket.

But he suggests the officer used his vehicle to block him from getting into his car and leaving because he “thought I was just a regular n-----.”

The man also repeatedly refers to the officer, who apparently is black, as an “Uncle Tom,” a derogatory term for “a black person who is eager to win the approval of white people and willing to co-operate with them,” according to Merriam-Webster.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/09/14/city-investigating-workers-video-of-dust-up-over-disabled-parking-spot.html

I see irrational people with no BLM involvement. Regardless.

:highjack:

 

[mariomike]

I see irrational people with no BLM involvement. Regardless.

:highjack:

Would be odd to go after a black guy on a black Lives matter homepage but sure. 

Just that black on black disrespect is nothing new.

Good luck on your tour.