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The Caledonia, Ontario Superthread.

Justice = Law + Sense

This is not a protest against a genocidal despot, it is an increasingly violent protest based on a fundamentally wrong belief that it is infact their land, when it is simply for held for their use as the government sees fit and has now changed hands legally.
 
Some people have different realities than others.  Unfortunately we all do not live in the world of privilege and opportunity that Italian immigrants do.  I can think of a few cafes I'd like the OPP to storm before they bother with any first nations protests.   First job, figure out what it means to live in a first nations community.  Second job, tell me why they must live the same way as you do.  Third job, recognize that our government has recognized their special status since Europeans arrived here.  So do we now have the awesome privilege of deciding unilaterally that this no longer applies?  Huh?
 
R031 Pte Joe said:
+1 right here and I'm sure quite a few more!

I'm sick of all the BS from all sides of all of Canada. Everyone wants to be special, Quebec wants to separate, the Natives all want a hunk of land... People want this, people want that, new immigrants want this, old immigrants want that, 2nd and 3rd generation Canadians want this and 4th, 5th and 6th generation wants that!

How about we deal with everything the way we're all suppose and live our lives as Canadians in Canada... Sure, my family are "Italian-American's"... When someone asks me what country I'm from or my ethnic background I don't Italy or Italian! I SAY CANADIAN.

I believe exactly what is stated above by another Canadian. Everyone in Canada needs to realize thier Canadian and get thier $hit together and grow up! If we cannot act as one Nation, we will fail.

Let's get on with it!

It'd be lovely if you could convince this Native group that, they need to abide by Canadian law and lawful government decisions.
 
Tell me again, why you cared about Ipperwash and why you cared so much that it cost a man his life?  Explain to me why that had to happen and why we are so much better off today because it did happen?  

Once again your confused as to my concern for something that I had nothing to do with. I simply cared about it because it was a good place for training and we caretakered it. Why Dudley George was shot is being dealt with where it should be, in a court of law. Are we better off? No, we lost the camp and now it's a cesspool not fit for anyone.

So I have no problem with the law and law enforcement officials treating crack dealers and native protestors differently.

So you don't have a problem with biased application of the law, when it suits you, but when we wish to apply the same standards to your raison d'etre, we're jack booted thugs?

Mister, you just came full circle and talked yourself off your pillar of self righteousness. You just lost whatever credibility you thought you had.

See ya, wouldn't want to be ya.
 
Zertz,

Once again, read the law, the government is in a fiduciary position vis a vis First Nations and this means they do not unilaterally decide what happens to the land.  They have the duty to see that the land is used for the benefit of these communities and is divested only with their consent.  And that is the law.  
 
Saw on the news earlier that 15 of the 16 people arrested were released with conditions (one condition being to stay away from the protest).  The lawyer for them said on the news that his clients don't recognize the court's jurisdiction.   
 
Under the Indian Act, the Canadian government decides what is best for reserved land. If the government decides it is best to sell land and give compensation, they have that right.
 
I am confused.  Nothing to do with, no concern with.  Sorry I don't understand this apathetic, pathetic sheep-like attitude.  I am a part of this country and I think my opinion matters.  So you don't?  See ya, I'll never be ya.

Great place to train, dude.  Sorry, I believe in living up to one's word and behaving honourably and that trumps having a great place to train.

Application of the law:  the law is meant to be applied appropriately according to the situation.  Yes, I would hold crack dealers to higher standard of accountability than a group of women doing the same thing to protest the right to bare their breasts. I guess you wouldn't...
 
Was that in reply to Recceguy's post, or...? *tad confoozled*
 
Zertz,

Dude, you're just plain wrong, fella.  You are not even close to being right or having a leg to stand on.  I mean just way off and blind folded in the field of wrong in the middle of the night.
 
I mean that as in read the decisions of the Supreme Court of Canada regarding the interpretation of First Nation treaty rights. 
 
Yep, your confused all right.

When your opinion and solution is to toss the courts aside and deal with situations illegally, your opinions DON'T matter and you don't belong in this country.

Sorry, I believe in living up to one's word and behaving honourably

Not according to your stance advocating the breaking of our laws by holding of communities and transportation systems hostage, not to mention the enviromental damage they've caused. Caretakers of the earth ::) Your wearing your heart on your sleeve and just contradicted yourself again.
 
Guess said:
Some people have different realities than others.  Unfortunately we all do not live in the world of privilege and opportunity that Italian immigrants do.  I can think of a few cafes I'd like the OPP to storm before they bother with any first nations protests.  First job, figure out what it means to live in a first nations community.  Second job, tell me why they must live the same way as you do.  Third job, recognize that our government has recognized their special status since Europeans arrived here.  So do we now have the awesome privilege of deciding unilaterally that this no longer applies?  Huh?

The only world of privilege and opportunity that Italian Canadian immigrants have is one they built with thier own bloody hands!!! They came to Canada like many other immigrants back then and worked thier hands until they were bloody stumps in some cases. I could tell you stories from my family members where they didn't even have a place to live when they came over! Also stories where they died working on the job, many actually just so they could feed thier families. They begged for a job on the street and when finally got one, SLEPT IN THE SHOP! It's happened, they built what they now live in/on.

Many of them built thier own homes. They didn't come here and sit on thier hands and ask for a hand out. I can think of a few cafe's I'd like the OPP to storm also, all the one's controlled by the Italian MOB. I have ties to the First Nations, my grandfather (not by blood but by marriage) is a Metis and he's shown me quite a few things in my day my fellow Canadian. I've been to the reserves, I've met many people. I've played lacross against the First Nations (got my ass kicked too). Does this mean I'm an expert? No. It does show I care for those people enough to have tasted at least in part thier plight. And where did I ever say that natives had to live the same as anyone did? I didn't, the closest I came to any branding or changing of lifestyle was for us all to say we're Canadian. Yeah the government has recognized thier special status, and the natives do have thier special rights which I am fine with. So LET'S GET ON WITH IT like I said before? What's to argue?

Let's just be Canadians.

Warning, this is my opinion and mine only.
 
Zertz said:
It'd be lovely if you could convince this Native group that, they need to abide by Canadian law and lawful government decisions.

I could, if you give my unit the "stand to!" order...  >:D  We're only 1/2 drive from there...

They should already realize this by the Supreme Court of Canada and by the fact the police already tried to physically remove them once.... They could have done more. What do you want me to do again?


EDIT: ANother funny thing... We have a law that states the "crown" can take our land if they so choose eventually also.. What's it called again? Crown Perogative? No.. Something else... ALong those lines... So we're all in the same boat! If the government decides to throw a highway down into my livingroom, they do it. I can't do anything about it as far as I know so long as the re-imburse me appropriately...
 
I shall...  these are some complex decisions but here are some excerpts from Delgamuukw.  Find them here:

http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/cgi-bin/disp.pl/en/pub/1997/vol3/html/1997scr3_1010.html?query=%22sparrow%22&langue=en&selection=&database=en/jug&method=all&retour=/csc-scc/cgi-bin/srch.pl?language=en~~method=all~~database=en%2Fjug~~query=sparrow

good lord, that is long...

This sui generis interest is not equated with fee simple ownership; nor can it be described with reference to traditional property law concepts. It is personal in that it is generally inalienable except to the Crown and, in dealing with this interest, the Crown is subject to a fiduciary obligation to treat the aboriginal peoples fairly. There is reluctance to define more precisely the right of aboriginal peoples to live on their lands as their forefathers had lived.

Constitutionally recognized aboriginal rights are not absolute and may be infringed by the federal and provincial governments if the infringement (1) furthers a compelling and substantial legislative objective and (2) is consistent with the special fiduciary relationship between the Crown and the aboriginal peoples. The development of agriculture, forestry, mining and hydroelectric power, the general economic development of the interior of British Columbia, protection of the environment or endangered species, and the building of infrastructure and the settlement of foreign populations to support those aims, are objectives consistent with this purpose. Three aspects of aboriginal title are relevant to the second part of the test. First, the right to exclusive use and occupation of land is relevant to the degree of scrutiny of the infringing measure or action. Second, the right to choose to what uses land can be put, subject to the ultimate limit that those uses cannot destroy the ability of the land to sustain future generations of aboriginal peoples, suggests that the fiduciary relationship between the Crown and aboriginal peoples may be satisfied by the involvement of aboriginal peoples in decisions taken with respect to their lands. There is always a duty of consultation and, in most cases, the duty will be significantly deeper than mere consultation. And third, lands held pursuant to aboriginal title have an inescapable economic component which suggests that compensation is relevant to the question of justification as well. Fair compensation will ordinarily be required when aboriginal title is infringed.

Generally speaking, aboriginal rights may be regulated by the Crown only when such regulation operates to interfere with aboriginal rights pursuant to legitimate Crown objectives which can honourably be justified, without undue interference with such rights. Moreover, when regulating, government must be mindful of the appropriate level of priority which aboriginal rights have over competing, inconsistent activities.

Aboriginal title at common law is protected in its full form by s. 35(1). This conclusion flows from the express language of s. 35(1) itself, which states in full: "[t]he existing aboriginal and treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada are hereby recognized and affirmed" (emphasis added). On a plain reading of the provision, s. 35(1) did not create aboriginal rights; rather, it accorded constitutional status to those rights which were "existing" in 1982. The provision, at the very least, constitutionalized those rights which aboriginal peoples possessed at common law, since those rights existed at the time s. 35(1) came into force. Since aboriginal title was a common law right whose existence was recognized well before 1982 (e.g., Calder, supra), s. 35(1) has constitutionalized it in its full form.

 
Joe,

Use your amazingly level-headedness and gleeful use of emoteicons to convince them? :P

<3 I think you've probably got the best position in this thread, heh heh.
 
Pte joe:  Are you going to tell us about the poor Italo-Canadians?  Gawd, they have had it so tough, what with their bloody hands and all.  Oh, bloody because they were cutting off horses heads and murdering their adversaries...

See how easy it is, Joe...
 
Hey, lets not start the 'Your Race Sucks' game, because that game sucks. Lets play Chess instead.
 
Guess said:
The courts and respecting decisions.  Ah.  Go and read the decision of the SCC in Delgamuukw, Sparrow, Vanderpeet, then come back and talk.

..... what's the problem? I disagree with them. I still respect them. The government will have to respect them. If they have relevance to this case, the court will hear of it, and consider it.

Explain how to protest without breaking the law

Well.... in Edmonton:

(2)Any person desiring to hold a parade or procession within the City of Edmonton shall at least forty-eight (48) hours prior to the time they desire to hold the same, make application in writing to the City Manager and in such application shall furnish to the City Manager information with respect to the following, namely:

(a) The name and address of the applicant, and if such application is an organization, the names, addresses and occupations of the executive thereof;

(b) The nature and object of such parade or procession;

(c) The day, date and hours during which same will be held;

(d) The intended route thereof;

(e) The approximate number of persons and/or vehicles taking part therein;

(f) The approximate size, number and nature of flags, banners, placards or such similar things to be carried therein and particulars of signs, inscriptions and wording to be exhibited thereon; and such written application shall bear the signatures and addresses of the persons who will be in control of such parade or procession and who undertake to be responsible for the good order and conduct thereof.

(3) During such parade or procession, all pedestrians not taking part therein shall be restricted to the use of the sidewalk area.

(4) No parade or procession shall move at a slower speed than five (5) kilometers per hour, or obstruct any highway for a longer period than is reasonably necessary.

Unless you are illiterate it's actually pretty easy to have a legal protest.

And guys, let try and keep this on topic.
 
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