The Caledonia, Ontario Superthread.

[FredDaHead]

On this, what hurts my feelings is that if "white" people would use the same means to protest, I think the police would go forward with the "big guns". For the natives, because it's a touchy subject, the cops are a lot more patient and dilligent.

Just my opinion, but can somebody argue against this?

I definately agree with you on this.

Furthermore, the protest became more than just "peaceful" when protestors physically attacked police who were there to evict them. At least one woman admitted (on national television, no less!) that she had resisted arrest and had kicked a policeman in the chest.

I love how "peaceful" emcompasses anything, up to and including deadly force (not in this case), as long as the people the protestors use violence against are policemen.

 

[Centurian1985]

The problem is that there are moderates and extremists on BOTH sides of this issue.  Some native bands wnat to negotiate while other band reps want to play hardball; same on the govt side of the fence, some want to negotiate and others want to ignore the issue.

 

[couchcommander]

It seems to me that a lawful order was issued by an Ontario Superior Court Judge ordering these persons to leave the site by a specific date or face a specific consequence.

By failing to do so, according to Canadian law, they are now all in contempt of court (I believe).

The injunction specifically ordered the OPP to remove the protesters from the site and to fingerprint and photograph anyone who didn't leave after the injunction had been read under the "Indentifcations of Criminals Act".

Exercising ones rights to civil disobience or peaceful association DOES NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE justify resisting arrest, or MOST ESPECIALLY, assualting officers.

If it was their intention to exercise their right to civil disobeince and challenge the legality of the injunction, then they should have challenged their arrest and indentification through the courts afterwards, where it would be determined if the order was in fact lawful.

As of now they are not only in contempt of court, but are interferring with the rights of liberty and security of person of the lawful owners of that land.

(am I not right, zipperhead?)

In the end, I am forced to wonder whether or not these protesters would be saying the same thing if someone occupied their land and refused to leave even after an injunction was issued.

 

[GO!!!]

The first thing we have to do is define this as what it is;

Civil disobedience was southern blacks walking instead of taking the bus. This is domestic terrorism.

These "protests" should be broken up with extreme prejudice, and any negotiations frozen for a period of time after the last criminal is dragged away.

The government negotiating with the aboriginals is the same as negotiating with terrorists. It is validating their acts as effective, legitimate, and lacking in any real consequence.

In short, they got what they wanted, now it will happen again. I would hazard that if a Mechanised unit with SERT backup had been called as soon as the first fire was lit, every protestor was remanded for 30 days as a threat to local security, and band councils had the cost of their actions garnisheed from their federal allowances, we would see alot less of this sort of thing.

The aboriginals are in the wrong, the full weight of the available resources, legal, law enforcement and military should be brought to bear, to restore peace and order, and send a message to others who might be so inclined to imitate them.

 

[QV]

GO!!! - bang on.

 

[couchcommander]

+ 1

 

[DiamondDarryl]

This protest is driving me crazy. I live in Hamilton and it is hijacking my quality television every half hour. I think the natives are just pushing the envelope once again. If they believe in this protest then why are they masking their face? Growing up in Saskatchewan i have seen my fair share of native bull#@%$, however I hope this does not end in another "Dudley George" incident.

Giver' OPP 

 

[Guest]

I will try to keep this short and inflammatory. (too mm's right?)  So let's talk about reality, really.  I don't care to argue the justice of their claim or their actions.  However, I don't know why you guy talk about "extreme prejudice" and crapola like that, when you have to admire these people.  They've been occupying the land for close to two months.  How many of you just heard about it?  Oh, a stand-off, sorry if thats the only thing that grabs your attention.  Are we going to start calling this terrorism now?  Thats jokes, boys.  Good jokes.  Why don't you try thinking about what it would take to get you out there standing behind a pile of burning tires facing an enemy that could wipe you out in an instant?  MMmmm?  Bunch of freaks, don't know nothing, don't respect authority, let's teach'em a lesson.  Still, more balls than you, hombre.  Soldiers more than anybody should know about realpolitick and that nothing gets done unless it has to.  Native Canadians occupy a unique place in Canadian society, just recognize that as a fact, why don't we try fulfilling some of those obligations are ancestors agreed to, you know, the law and honour and stuff.  Those of you who want to treat them like al-Queda should be chained up in a dank basement next to Rosanne Barr.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I had no part in their social dilemma or existing problems and I refuse to be goaded into taking responsibilty for it. Here's an idea. Why don't we just start fresh, everyone is responsible to themselves to legally make their way in the world. Work hard and savor the rewards. Sit around on your hump, bitching and waiting for a handout and life will pass you by, and don't expect me to give you a second glance on the way through.

 

[couchcommander]

Guess,

Who's really got the bigger balls?

The guy who stands there, takes his lumps, and still conducts himself honorably and within the principles of our society?

OR

The guy who lashes out and abuses the rights of others just because he is angry?

*edit* And there are ways to actually affect "realpolitik" without resorting to violence. Take a look at these "third way health reforms" in Alberta.

You know what I did about them? Well I certainly didn't go burning tyres in front of a hospital.

I signed a petition, called my MLA, sent a letter to Ralph Klein, and took part in the public consultations. Guess what happened when enough of us did this? No more health reforms.

 

[Guest]

I had no part in making any of the laws that I live by just as I had no part in signing any of the treaties that were signed between British or Canadian authorities and native communities.  Why am I bound by one and not the other?  The treaties had the authority of law and so says the SCC. 

Just angry?  Thats a matter of opinion.  If you decide that these people are just angry then your opinion will not change.  If you come to the conclusion that perhaps they are angry with a reason then maybe your opinion will change.  Let's face it, these communities arent enormous, I am sure the authorities know who are behind those masks.  It wouldn't be that difficult to work it out.  These people put themselves on the line, they didn't attack anything, they only said they weren't going to retreat.  Nobody needs to get hurt, just work it out.  Did the police need to storm Ipperwash?  I mean who really cared about the place and what the F are we using it for know?  So was that a good decision?  Well, no, not really.  Just accept they got you by the short and curlies and negotiate.  If a bunch of crack dealers start burning tires on the QEW then feel free to storm them, shoot them and whatever, but until then, just deal with reality...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If a bunch of crack dealers start burning tires on the QEW then feel free to storm them, shoot them and whatever, but until then, just deal with reality...

No. By your logic we should treat them the same as your current cause. Wait them out and negotiate. Oh wait, the crackheads are breaking the law though, so it would be ok to shut them down.................just like the others that are breaking the law.

I mean who really cared about the place and what the F are we using it for know?

Many of us that used it cared about it. We don't use it now because we have given it back. Now it's a ghetto. I guess when you don't work for or pay for something, it really doesn't matter what you do with it. If you want to live in squalor, who am I to deny you your choice.

 

[couchcommander]

they didn't attack anything

I'm sure the officers who went in there to remove them would have something to say about that.

If a bunch of crack dealers start burning tires on the QEW then feel free to storm them, shoot them and whatever, but until then, just deal with reality...

Oh I see, so if a DIFFERENT group starts breaking the law, then it would be OK to uphold the law, but we should let these people continue because it's understandable in their case.

What the terrorists (heh) are doing is trying the patience of the officers and the Canadian public. It would take a very minimal amount of effort to "remove" these people if there was little concern for being "nice". Rubber bullets and tear gas are very effective if used judiciously.

I had no part in making any of the laws that I live by just as I had no part in signing any of the treaties that were signed between British or Canadian authorities and native communities.  Why am I bound by one and not the other?  The treaties had the authority of law and so says the SCC.

You're bound by both, but it's not vigilate groups who get to determine what they mean. It's the courts. If these protesters don't see the need to respect decisions when they aren't in their favour, why should I bother to respect them when they aren't in my favour? It that the precendent they want set?

 

[Zertz]

Inches turn to miles. As a first generation Canadian (my parents being immigrants) I will say that the protestors are very lucky to be in Canada, for they would all be dead by now if it had been in one of many nations in the world. It was only two decades ago that government Deathsqauds and police massacres still happened in my ethic origin of South Africa.

Ignoring court orders, resisting arrest, attacking police officers, using scare tactics, not what one thinks of when thinking of peaceful protests. Restoring law and order is paramount, because each day that they unlawfully remain others will see these actions as apropriate.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Bingo.

 

[Guest]

The law is not this shining beacon of truth and honest and objectivity.  It is dirty and it is biased because it is made by human beings.  So I have no problem with the law and law enforcement officials treating crack dealers and native protestors differently. No problem whatsoever and this spills over to all areas of the law. It is why we have human judges instead of computers or mandatory sentencing.  The circumstances dictate, lets take the situation into account and react accordingly.  This is basic precept of military training and realpolitik.  This is the grown up world where there are no easy answers.

Tell me again, why you cared about Ipperwash and why you cared so much that it cost a man his life?  Explain to me why that had to happen and why we are so much better off today because it did happen?  

The courts and respecting decisions.  Ah.  Go and read the decision of the SCC in Delgamuukw, Sparrow, Vanderpeet, then come back and talk.

 

[QV]

  It wouldn't be that difficult to work it out.   These people put themselves on the line, they didn't attack anything, they only said they weren't going to retreat.  Nobody needs to get hurt, just work it out.  ....

There was a court injunction.  The rioters decided not to follow that ruling and have decided to resist, and it seems like they intend to use (more) violence to do so.  Wooden boards with nails spiked thru, booby traps?  WTF is that?  Do you call that the start or continuation of a peaceful protest?  To me (and most sane people) the spiked boards and booby traps are weapons intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm.  A group of people with that on their mind need to be dealt with swiflty.

Oh, and your example of crack dealers on the QEW is plain stupid.  Thats reality.  

People can protest all they want, they just have to obey the damn law when they do.        

 

[Guest]

I really don't think it such as great achievement to compare yourself to Joe Stalin or the racist bastards of South Africa and then claim you are such a great humanitarian.  Being right is not about being a whole bunch better than the bad guys...

 

[JBP]

I had no part in their social dilemma or existing problems and I refuse to be goaded into taking responsibilty for it. Here's an idea. Why don't we just start fresh, everyone is responsible to themselves to legally make their way in the world. Work hard and savor the rewards. Sit around on your hump, bitching and waiting for a handout and life will pass you by, and don't expect me to give you a second glance on the way through.

+1 right here and I'm sure quite a few more!

I'm sick of all the BS from all sides of all of Canada. Everyone wants to be special, Quebec wants to separate, the Natives all want a hunk of land... People want this, people want that, new immigrants want this, old immigrants want that, 2nd and 3rd generation Canadians want this and 4th, 5th and 6th generation wants that!

How about we deal with everything the way we're all suppose and live our lives as Canadians in Canada... Sure, my family are "Italian-American's"... When someone asks me what country I'm from or my ethnic background I don't Italy or Italian! I SAY CANADIAN.

I believe exactly what is stated above by another Canadian. Everyone in Canada needs to realize thier Canadian and get thier $hit together and grow up! If we cannot act as one Nation, we will fail.

Let's get on with it!

 

[Guest]

Yes, crack dealers on the QEW is stupid example.  Thank you, I had not realized that.

Explain how to protest without breaking the law...  Wait, I know...  an email chain letter.  How about a march?  Oh, maybe you better ask the RCMP if that is okay.  You guys live in a deluded world where you just wallpaper over the badthings..  Its a nice life.