The brown Temperate Combat Boot (AKA: Mk IV Cbt Boot) - No longer CADPAT

[armyvern]

If the troops are wearing privately purchased boots, that perhaps speaks volumes to the quality, comfort, durability and practicality of what is on offer.  If the issue boots were hot shit, then the boys would be willingly wearing them in my experience.  That's why when I was in Calgary in the early 90's those who could afford them, wore Danners.  Not to mention Norwegian sweaters and US rain jackets and cbt coat liners.

Should not command better direct their attention and efforts into getting gear that meets the standards that are obviously not being met instead of "no tickiee, no laundry!"?

Nothing that hasn't been raised here before in a myriad of other boot/footwear threads floating around the site. Does this thread need to turn in to that debate too?

 

[jollyjacktar]

No, you're right.  It doesn't.  But to be fair, you mentioned JSR's 20th century head-in-the (sand, butt etc) attitude first.  I'll shut up now.

 

[armyvern]

No, you're right.  It doesn't.  But to be fair, you mentioned JSR's 20th century head-in-the (sand, butt etc) attitude first.  I'll shut up now.

That post had SFA to do with footwear procurement policy.  The little factoid that the CF has approached going with a boot allowance and was shut down by TB eons ago is in other threads; obviously you haven't read them.

 

[George Wallace]

Why does it matter anymore?  A huge portion of the soldiers now wear privately purchased boots.  I was recently appointed as SSM, and I do too.  So do my RSM and CO.  Non-issued boots are a non-issue.  Or at least they have been. 

His question in regards to colour issues is valid if you ask me, and I think that your question is driving at the wrong issue.  This has been a de-facto accepted practice in many units for a long time.

I think it was a legitimate question.  Does he have a medical reason not to wear issue boots or is it a personal whim?  If it were a personal whim, then the answer is a no brainer.  Perhaps I could ask you the same.  The LCF is not what wearing a uniform is all about.  You as an "recently appointed SSM" are responsible for your troops.  Could I ask you a question?  Why do we even design, produce and issue a Uniform if everyone can be like a kid playing airsoft and go out and buy what they think is best for them?  Sort of defeats the meaning of the word "uniform".  Where will it stop?  Will it continue on this track so that some day we will see soldiers in DEU wearing brown, black and khaki boots; silk or cotton ties; Gucci shirts; etc.?  What will we witness on "Speak Like a Pirate Day"; swashbuckling costumes?  Ponder it for a moment.  Why do we go through the expense of producing uniforms?  Why not let everyone just purchase what they think is best?  There would then be no need for a Clothing Issue at all, nor Clothing Stores, nor any R&D to develop a better uniform, including boots.

There is a time and a place for everything.  It seems that many are stretching the bounds in what they think they can get away with.

 

[brihard]

My unit has just gone back to rigidly enforced issued boots only for garrison wear- which prompted several guys to have to go to clothing stores because they haven't had issued boots in their possession in some years now. For the field 8" Black remains acceptable.

 

[Ostrozac]

Why do I wear non-issued boots? A combination of factors. For me personally, it is because of comfort, safety on ice (I have broken too many bones to wear the CWWB without fear), and that the supply system always seems to be out of Mark III Combat Boots in my size. A boot that I quite enjoy wearing.

So I guess it's personal whim, rather than anything else. But in the units I have served in it was a very, very common personal whim. Going all the way to CO and RSM.

 

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

If it were a personal whim, then the answer is a no brainer. 

I agree that it's a no-brainer.  Let the troops wear whatever boots they want, so long as they are of good quality and look professional.  The horse is out of the barn on non-issued boots.  Nearly everyone I know wears them.  I can tell that you think this is an example of poor leadership, but suffice to say that I disagree and that I don't think I'm the only one who does.

As to the various units going back to a rigidly-enforced "issued boot only" policy, that's not surprising, but it is disappointing to hear.  Without trying to put words in his mouth, I think that what Ostrozac may have been driving at was a fear that the black/brown issue would result in the adoption of such regressive policies on a widespread basis.  If so, then score one for the dinosaurs.

 

[aesop081]

  If it were a personal whim, then the answer is a no brainer.

Yes, it is a no-brainer. Who cares ?

The issue boots are shit. I tried them long enough to figure out that they hurt my feet and are way too hot. I bought myself a pair of bates M9s and one pair of Bates Delta 8.

Yup, it was a no-brainer.

I will not give any grief to any of my troops who choses not to wear the issued boots. If they are the same colour as the issued boots, look "military" and are kept clean & polished, i will just go on worrying about things that actually matter.

When our system can crank out something that makes sense, i'll go back to wearing issued boots.

It seems that many are stretching the bounds in what they think they can get away with.

Thankfully, my job involves making sure the stretching stays reasonable.

 

[armyvern]

... If so, then score one for the dinosaurs.

Bullshit. The fact of the matter is that we have a national contract for footwear ... that is being paid for regardless. It's got nothing to do with dinosaurs ... the CF has attempted, and been shut down by Treasury Board, to go with a boot allowance.

Bitch about the issued footwear all you want - it sucks, but be damn sure you put the blame squarely where it actually lay.

 

[George Wallace]

CDN Aviator, I know you have an axe to grind and do so at any opportunity, and I find it convenient of you to gloss over this part of my post.

There is a time and a place for everything. 

willy.  I can just as easily point to you as well.

 

[Stoker]

Yes, it is a no-brainer. Who cares ?

The issue boots are crap. I tried them long enough to figure out that they hurt my feet and are way too hot. I bought myself a pair of bates M9s and one pair of Bates Delta 8.

Yup, it was a no-brainer.

I will not give any grief to any of my troops who choses not to wear the issued boots. If they are the same colour as the issued boots, look "military" and are kept clean & polished, i will just go on worrying about things that actually matter.

When our system can crank out something that makes sense, i'll go back to wearing issued boots.

Thankfully, my job involves making sure the stretching stays reasonable.

On the ships a lot of us pick up Bates  8" Tactical Sport Composite Toe Side Zip at the NEX. They are way better than what we current get and way more comfortable. Never had a problem wearing them.

 

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

Bullshit. The fact of the matter is that we have a national contract for footwear ... that is being paid for regardless. It's got nothing to do with dinosaurs ... the CF has attempted, and been shut down by Treasury Board, to go with a boot allowance.

***** about the issued footwear all you want - it sucks, but be damn sure you put the blame squarely where it actually lay.

I think you may be misinterpreting what I mean.  I'm aware of all the above.  I'm suggesting that once the brown boots are widely issued, it will be easy for those who are inclined to implement regressive boot policies to say "the brown boots are here, everyone will wear them, no more privately purchased boots".  Nowhere in my post did I blame the supply system or suggest a boot allowance.

 

[jollyjacktar]

That post had SFA to do with footwear procurement policy.  The little factoid that the CF has approached going with a boot allowance and was shut down by TB eons ago is in other threads; obviously you haven't read them.

Yup, you're right again.  I have not been paying close attention to any issues here about a boot allowance.  Sea boots are what's on offer for me to use and that's that.  They're up to the standards and needs apparently of the Sailor's such as myself as we all seem to be wearing them without major conflict.

As for Willy's post, I thought it was more directed at the results of the procurement process.  That it's not working and the troops are taking care of things themselves.  To which I agreed and put my oar in to the mix, my bad.  As a Hairy Bag I don't have a dog in the fight and I shall now withdraw out of this.

 

[Ostrozac]

I did recently mention the supply system.  I don`t like wearing the issued CWWB in the winter, and I can`t seem to find the issued summer boot that I do like (the Mark III Combat Boot).

I don`t understand the supply system enough to suggest a solution, so I have instead voted with my wallet. I buy Danners for the winter and Magnums for the summer. And I am certainly not the only one -- as stated before I take my cues from higher, and when Majors and MWOs are routinely walking around the garrison in non-issued footwear, then Lieutenants and Corporals will, not surprisingly, do the same.

I was more interested in whether I will end up buying brown winter boots to replace my black Danners.

 

[aesop081]

I find it convenient of you to gloss over this part of my post.

It gets lost in all the the chaff contained in your post.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The issued boots are absolute dogshit, got the black MK IV's and wore them only a handful of times, they tore the crap out of my feet in Garrison might I add.  The last pair of issued boots I wore on ex were Mk III's with Vibrams until they blew out on me in the field in 09.  Since then I have worn Danner's and Rocky's both of which are far superior boots to anything the CF issues.  Being in a 3rd Bn where my feet are my lifeline and vehicle its important I get a boot I can walk with carrying 100lbs + of gear and not break myself in the process.  Not to mention the stupidly long wait time it takes to get issued boots.  I don't have time to try a boot on test it out for a couple of weeks, bring it back, get another pair until I find the perfect fit.  The present system is absolute nonsense and has really let the troops down  :facepalm:.  Give me an 11.5 D width that is lightweight and breathable that I can get in a day and use the next day on a ruckmarch. 

The boot issue is going to remain for the foreseeable future and the major boot companies have already taken note and the first "Coyote" Brown boots are already beginning to hit the market with SWAT, Rocky and Danner all looking to produce boots in that colour.

 

[PuckChaser]

Coyote Brown SWATs are not the same colour as the CF brown temperate boots we're starting to see. Any coyote colour is a lighter shade of brown.

 

[aesop081]

It won't take long for manufacturers to pick up on the right colour.

 

[Good2Golf]

If Boulet made their boot available to the general public, I wonder how many people would actually buy them?  Folks may come back and tell me that the boot "meets spec" to which I would not disagree, but I've worked requirements, including life-support eqpt (the aircrew variety, including boots) and I think it is not overly reasonable to try and nail down a single boot the way it was done, and even the categories of boots are missing something IMO.

One of the biggest issues seems to be getting with the times re: sole technology. I liken the soles that currently exist on all issue boots as lacking...far too rigid/no compliant.  The original CWWB was a dangerous piece of gear that should never have been issued as it was, and the CWWB sole/Mk 2 isn't a whole lot better. 
The desert Boulets weren't much better, and the new coyote brown Mk IV's look (in the sense of how they'll work) the same (bad, rigid, blister-inducing).

Having worked the system, I have not just complained but sent in my share of UCRs, last being WRT CWWB (aka hockey pucks with laces). The CWWB UCR may have helped, but I still see stuff being pumped out of DLR/DSSPM that makes me shake my head.

Sad that the only issue boots I have that I am willing to wear regularly are my Mk IIIs with Vibram sole, and the Matterhorns I procured as a young, energetic Group ALSE Officer nack in the 90's.  I rue the day that my Grebs can't be re-soled or the leather tears and can't be repaired.

In my spare te, I will send in more UCRs on the latest "spec matching" footwear, but I will also wholly endorse the Black (and soon to be Brown) 8" rule to complement the use of the UCR system.

If SWAT, Rocky, 5.11, Adidas, Lowa, Danner and others can make decent boots, why for the love of anyone's diety of preference can't the CF/DLR/DSSPM get it right?

:2c:

Regards
G2G

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Coyote Brown SWATs are not the same colour as the CF brown temperate boots we're starting to see. Any coyote colour is a lighter shade of brown.

I wonder if this was done deliberately?  Even this is the case I think it will only be a matter of time before you see companies come out with a comparable colour of boot.  I don't know anyone that wear issued boots other than maybe some support types at 3 RCR.

I just participated in an equipment trial as well and we had members of 3 RCR, 3 PPCLI and 2 R22eR participating in it.  Part of the trial involved ruck marching every day with a cbt load weighing 110lbs.  The first day of the trial we conducted an 9km march on a dirt road. The 3 RCR and 3 PPCLI soldiers didn't lose one guy to injury and all the soldiers were wearing non-issued boots.  The R22eR soldiers, who are forced by their CoC too wear issued boots, lost half of their section on the march to blisters and foot injuries.  This spoke volumes IMO on the quality of our issued boots or lack thereof.