The 5th estate: Abu Ghraib and Torture in Iraq

[TAS278]

Instead of trying to repost everything I have stated so that you all can take another shot at me I will simply state this. You have all seen the evidence on the news. We have heard the reports and listened to their side. I for one will say that when any incidents involving the military become public that the whole story is not told. I am not saying there was a cover up, just an interpretation of what may have actually occurred.

This incident was potential the downfall to American public and world support, so it was dealt with the utmost discretion.
Anything that could have been forgotten or not actually documented would have been left out in order to spin this into an isolated incident.
The fact that they were ordered to do this is definitely one thing. Could honestly tell me that if you were in that situation and you were ordered to commit something like this that you would be smiling in the pictures???

They are guilty ______, Now what is done about this is not up to us. But will become incorporated in to my opinion about the Americans

Though I would like to know how you think mistreating and torture in this situation are different.

 

[KevinB]

:


Torture and being a shithead are two different things.

Clayton Matchee, Kyle Brown (and a few helpers) tortured Shidane Arone in Somalia.  Belgian Paratroopers tortured some Somalia by "slow roasting" them over a fire pit.


These Americans where thoughtless and dumb, and some definitely are criminals, the issues you are talking about are not torture.  Perhaps there where some isolated incidents of torture at Abu Ghraib or elsewhere - however it was not US military policy.


You can blather on if you would like - but it proves nothing more than your a delusional rabid anti-armerican.

 

[TAS278]

Not torture???  By what definition? Who is to say if left unchecked that this wouldn't have went further. You speak of policy as if it actually means something.  : You are simply being idealistic.. Torture in Somalia was more that of sadists than done for any direct purpose. Honestly i don't think you can compare the two. Of course the American will interrogate. It was said before that it is their responsibility. So interrogate them but don't strip them of their basic human rights. and i wouldn't sound so anti-American if all the topics weren't involving them. We can talk about other countries if you would prefer.

 

[48Highlander]

Not torture???  By what definition?

tor ·ture Pronunciation (tôrchr)
n.
1.  a. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
    b. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.


By that definition.  The prisoners in abu-gharib were not subject to severe pain by anyones measurement, nor was the treatment they were subject to intended to coerce or punish them.  It was merely a matter of a bunch of sadistic idiots acting like shitheads for their own amusement.

Who is to say if left unchecked that this wouldn't have went further. You speak of policy as if it actually means something.  : You are simply being idealistic..

With an attitude like that, you may wish to re-think your commitment to the CF.

Torture in Somalia was more that of sadists than done for any direct purpose. Honestly i don't think you can compare the two.

Are you on drugs?  What do you think abu-gharib was about?  You think putting men on leashes is a secret CIA interrogation technique?

 

[2 Cdo]

Just wade in here quickly with my .02 cents. SHF and TAS278, you two really don't have a clue! I've done escape and evasion with the British Army and have undergone interrogation IN TRAINING that was far worse then the little bit of humiliation suffered by some potential terrorist scumbags!
As for you TAZ, it's already been said but I'll say it again. You are obviously one of those Canadians who suffers from 'anti-Americanism" a disease that mainly affects those with a low intelligence and a low sense of worth, who feel it is necessary to constantly berate their neighbour because their neighbour actually goes out and does things that need doing while he sits on his a$$ and just whines about his status. No, I repeat, no amount of clear proof or thought will change your mind so I will now ignore all future drivel from you.
Sorry folks for the little bit of a rant there but people like him just annoy the guts out of me and sometimes they just need to be put in their place.

 

[Long in the tooth]

I'm against torture in principle.  Not because it's bad, per se, but that studies have shown it hardly works.  People being interrogated generally say whatever they have to say.  The americans accused of torture should be punished for being stupid, and then again for getting caught.

 

[FastEddy]

Just wade in here quickly with my .02 cents. SHF and TAS278, you two really don't have a clue! I've done escape and evasion with the British Army and have undergone interrogation IN TRAINING that was far worse then the little bit of humiliation suffered by some potential terrorist scumbags!
As for you TAZ, it's already been said but I'll say it again. You are obviously one of those Canadians who suffers from 'anti-Americanism" a disease that mainly affects those with a low intelligence and a low sense of worth, who feel it is necessary to constantly berate their neighbour because their neighbour actually goes out and does things that need doing while he sits on his a$$ and just whines about his status. No, I repeat, no amount of clear proof or thought will change your mind so I will now ignore all future drivel from you.
Sorry folks for the little bit of a rant there but people like him just annoy the guts out of me and sometimes they just need to be put in their place.

No need to apologize, nice to hear from someone who's Been There, Seen That, Done That !.

Just as a added note of interest which nodbody has mentioned, A interrogation is designed to produce two completely different results, 1: A Confession 2: Pertenant Information. Pertenant Information may Influence or be contained in a Confession. If harsh methods are employed to obtain either of these, it is the judgement and responsibility of the Interrogator or Intelligent Officers to sift and weed out any false or misleading information.

It seems to be the general conception of the general public, that any information obtained under harsh methods only results in false or misleading statements to stop the interrogation. Then consider, the Prisoner is aware that false information has been given and most certainly it will be verified or acted on, therefore the Prisoner has placed himself in real jeopardy and certainly not escaped interrogation. Remember that , Interrogators and Intelligent Officers are very highly trained and skilled personnel and any comparison to those Idiots at Abu Ghraib is purely coincidental.

Sorry 2 Cdo, to tailgate your post.

Cheers.

 

[TAS278]

Maybe I am coming off Anti-American. I really don't see how though. We are talking about Americans and if they tortured these poss terrorists. I think they did. If you don't then fine. I am not attacking anyone personally.
I am glad that some of you are getting angry about this and trying to make personal attacks on me.  If you don't like what people have to say then don't have a forum. If you simply made this forum to only talk to People that agree with you then so be it. It is funny thought hat you all get riled up and attack my intelligence becuase i disagree with you.
I do find it quite amusing that you we question my commitment to the CF.
You have no idea who i am.

 

[48Highlander]

Maybe I am coming off Anti-American. I really don't see how though. We are talking about Americans and if they tortured these poss terrorists. I think they did. If you don't then fine. I am not attacking anyone personally.
I am glad that some of you are getting angry about this and trying to make personal attacks on me.  If you don't like what people have to say then don't have a forum. If you simply made this forum to only talk to People that agree with you then so be it. It is funny thought hat you all get riled up and attack my intelligence becuase i disagree with you.
I do find it quite amusing that you we question my commitment to the CF.
You have no idea who i am.

.....

If we were talking in real life, right now you'd be watching me scratch my head in confussion.  Followed by a giant "WHAT??".

Alright, so now you're saying you disagree with both the dictionary definition of torture, and the UN definition of torture.  And you wonder why I'm making fun of your intelligence?  Listen dimwit, you're more than welcome to disagree with our opinions.  There's a wide diversity of opinions on these forums and we don't generaly agree on very much, but when we disagree it's about policies, or personal preferences, or something of that sort; something that is an OPINION.  As well, those who are disagreeing with the general consensus usualy try to explain WHY they disagree.

YOU on the other hand are not disagreeing with our opinions; what YOU are doing right now is disputing the very definition of torture without even bothering to state why you feel it's wrong.  Now if you feel that you're intelligent enough to rewrite the dictionary, as well as UN protocols on torture, well, hey, you're entitled to your opinion.  I still think you're an idiot, and I'm entitled to state my opinion.  I'm not "attacking your intelligence" because you "disagree with me", I'm simply stating a solid fact:  I think you're an idiot.  You asked for a definition of torture, I showed you one, and you either chose to ignore it, or didn't understand it.  Either way, your "intelligence" is just about high enough to keep you from dragging your knuckles on the ground.

I also don't give a crap who you are.  Anyone who considers policy to be a joke does not belong in our armed forces.  Period.

Now quit wasting our air and bandwidth.

 

[muskrat89]

Let's keep the focus on the debate, not the participants....

 

[George Wallace]

Opps....made a post in the wrong thread.  ;D

Once again I think the problem here lies in the fact that some people cannot differentiate between what is Torture, what is Abuse, and what is Stress.
Some people equate any form of Stress as Abuse, and any Abuse as Torture.  Interrogation does not automatically mean Torture.  Physical or mental Stress or Abuse do not necessarily become Torture.  There are degrees to which these are applied.  Only in the most extreme are they going to become Torture.

 

[GO!!!]

.....

If we were talking in real life, right now you'd be watching me scratch my head in confussion.   Followed by a giant "WHAT??".

Alright, so now you're saying you disagree with both the dictionary definition of torture, and the UN definition of torture.   And you wonder why I'm making fun of your intelligence?   Listen dimwit, you're more than welcome to disagree with our opinions.   There's a wide diversity of opinions on these forums and we don't generaly agree on very much, but when we disagree it's about policies, or personal preferences, or something of that sort; something that is an OPINION.   As well, those who are disagreeing with the general consensus usualy try to explain WHY they disagree.

YOU on the other hand are not disagreeing with our opinions; what YOU are doing right now is disputing the very definition of torture without even bothering to state why you feel it's wrong.   Now if you feel that you're intelligent enough to rewrite the dictionary, as well as UN protocols on torture, well, hey, you're entitled to your opinion.   I still think you're an idiot, and I'm entitled to state my opinion.   I'm not "attacking your intelligence" because you "disagree with me", I'm simply stating a solid fact:   I think you're an idiot.   You asked for a definition of torture, I showed you one, and you either chose to ignore it, or didn't understand it.   Either way, your "intelligence" is just about high enough to keep you from dragging your knuckles on the ground.

I also don't give a crap who you are.   Anyone who considers policy to be a joke does not belong in our armed forces.   Period.

Now quit wasting our air and bandwidth.

+1

Feel the sting of that pimp slapping!!

Also, you are right, we don't know you, but from your profile, you are a Navy technician, posted to a ship, well qualified I assume, to comment on ground operations, counter - terror activites and US military intelligence as it relates to international law and the UN. You could have significant experience with your boots on the ground and a gun in your hands, and have taken the time to educate yourself in the intricaticies of the abovementioned activities, but we don't know you.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Not Navy, try this..(Bedford Institute of Oceanography]


...and don't forget this great site,
http://www.cbla.net/

 

[TAS278]

WoW impressive.  Do you want a hero cookie now or should i wait to give you one later in person.  :crybaby:

 

[FastEddy]

WoW impressive.   Do you want a hero cookie now or should i wait to give you one later in person.   :crybaby:

Sorry !, regarding the above, pretty strong sentiments and this would be in reply to ? and the point is ?.

 

[Acorn]

Incomprehensible crap deleted.

 

[S McKee]

Is just me or are people getting just alittle cranky? No milk and cookies for you. By the way MPs do interrogate......

 

[GO!!!]

Is just me or are people getting just alittle cranky? No milk and cookies for you. By the way MPs do interrogate......

The better men of the army prefer tea and scrumpets, and perhaps a snifter of brandy in the parlour after dinner.

 

[FastEddy]

Just a few points of clarification, 1: The Term INTERVEIW is used when carring out the questioning of   a Witnesses or Persons of Interest. 2: The Term INTERROGATION is used when questioning a Suspect or Prisnor.

However, these terms are so interchangeable, depending on Country, Force or Organization its hard to pin down a exact singular definition.

During my Service here and abroad, I have never had the occasion to Interrogate a Enemy Prisoner or Combatant. But I can't count the Dependants and Military personnel I have.

I don't think anyone is trying to excuse the bad behavior and stupidity at Abu Ghraib and that the perparate rs should not be disciplined. Simply that their action does not fall under the definition of Torture per se.

 

[Infanteer]

Don't you wish your girlfriend was hot like me....



http://www.pcdmusic.com/

(Yes, I am pissed....)