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Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle - RG-31, LAV Coyote, and (partial) G-Wagon Replacement

PPCLI Guy said:
Ummmm....really?  Why would we do that?  And where is that in the SOR?  And what would the employment concept be?

I was simply pointing out that it would cost saving to make it, as a new platform coming in could be used to cover a large range of roles, and having it based off the same vehicle would save cost. This is just a reservists pipe dream though, We'll never get anything more then what we have. Reserve budgets, and personal even with RSS more then likely dont have the people to maintain a fleet, then again from what I've heard about some parts of the reg force, the bare minimum is the standard. I once had a reg force tech tell me he did what I did on a wednesday night in an entire week, and he wasn't joking. That said I know thats not the norm.
 
MilEME09 said:
I was simply pointing out that it would cost saving to make it, as a new platform coming in could be used to cover a large range of roles, and having it based off the same vehicle would save cost.
Not when we attempt to engineer new roles into a platform after it has been selected.  If you want cost savings, you need to identify the requirement up front, plan for the increased number of platforms required, and include the additional capabilities/functions in the initial request for proposals.  What you are suggesting now actually drives costs higher.
 
Monday, March 25, 2013

The “Spotlight on Army Equipment” series explores the range of tools used by the Canadian Army, including vehicles, weapons and communications equipment. Check back often to learn more!

Ottawa, Ontario — The Canadian Army is acquiring 500 Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicles (TAPV) to fill a variety of roles in operations at home and abroad.

TAPV will have two variants, the General Utility and the Recce. They will be highly mobile, highly protected, and the majority will be equipped with a Dual Remote Weapons System. A portion of the fleet that will be used for driver training and limited domestic tasks will not incorporate the weapons system.

The Army will acquire 307 of the General Utility variant, which will be able to play a role in operations across Canada in support of security tasks, such as international summits or events, assistance after natural disasters, and sovereignty operations.

The Recce variant of TAPV, although identical to the General Utility variant in mobility, protection and firepower, has a larger bank of auxiliary batteries to allow it to conduct silent watch activities for longer periods of time.

The Army will acquire 193 of this variant, which will work with the Light Armoured Vehicle Upgrade (LAV UP) Recce in patrols of two (one of each vehicle) to conduct both long and short range surveillance tasks. These two-vehicle teams will replace the current Long Range Surveillance System which is mounted on the Coyote, providing superior mobility and protection for future surveillance and reconnaissance operations.

On international operations, the Army will use both TAPV variants for command and control, liaison, force protection, patrols, convoy escort, and the transportation of troops and VIPs.

The TAPV offers a high degree of protection for its occupants, an important factor for expeditionary missions, given the prevalence of the use of mines and IEDs. The use of these weapons is expected to continue into the future, which will mean an ongoing requirement for this kind of highly protected vehicle.

The TAPV also incorporates cross-country mobility. This enhanced mobility enables it to operate in a range of environments, including dry plains, mud fields, snow, and ice conditions. This capability affords additional IED protection as it provides the crew with flexibility in choosing routes. In fact, the TAPV can avoid roads altogether, making it harder for opposing forces to predict routes and place IEDs accordingly.

First deliveries of both variants of the TAPV are expected to begin in 2014.


The part about domestic operations perked my interest, since under their new plan the reserves will take care of 90% of domestic ops, in theory at least. So does this mean my gleaming pipe dream of reservists getting trained on these come true?
 
MilEME09 said:
The part about domestic operations perked my interest, since under their new plan the reserves will take care of 90% of domestic ops, in theory at least. So does this mean my gleaming pipe dream of reservists getting trained on these come true?

It's a serious stretch that the Army PR news machine is saying the one of the TAPV's primary mission tasks is natural disaster response.

As for actual PRes training on the TAPV, as per the fielding plan previously mentioned in this thread, the PRes Armoured units will likely start running PCF courses for TAPV D&M, and RWS Gunner once the vehicle is fielded.  Unit level training will likely be coordinated through the area training centers, i.e.  annual gun camps and recce. sqn level exercises;  It'll probably be very similar to back in the 70's and 80's when PRes Armoured Recce units used the Jeep/Iltis for local training and the Lynx during area concentrations and gun camps.

As for PRes Inf and other trades getting trained on TAPV, I'd bet that situation would mirror how RG-31 training was done for guys deploying overseas as part of the work-up cycle.
 
Matt_Fisher said:
It's a serious stretch that the Army PR news machine is saying the one of the TAPV's primary mission tasks is natural disaster response.

Google Natural Disaster Looting.....

The job that nobody wants.
 
True, but I was called out for the hurricane relief a couple of years ago and wpns were not authorized...I really can't see it being an issue here in canada, in the US for sure though...
 
Matt_Fisher said:
It's a serious stretch that the Army PR news machine is saying the one of the TAPV's primary mission tasks is natural disaster response.

As for actual PRes training on the TAPV, as per the fielding plan previously mentioned in this thread, the PRes Armoured units will likely start running PCF courses for TAPV D&M, and RWS Gunner once the vehicle is fielded.  Unit level training will likely be coordinated through the area training centers, i.e.  annual gun camps and recce. sqn level exercises;  It'll probably be very similar to back in the 70's and 80's when PRes Armoured Recce units used the Jeep/Iltis for local training and the Lynx during area concentrations and gun camps.

As for PRes Inf and other trades getting trained on TAPV, I'd bet that situation would mirror how RG-31 training was done for guys deploying overseas as part of the work-up cycle.

That is great for the PRes operators.  But who is going to support these vehicles?  The already stretched RegF Svc Bn's?  It's a long way from Edmonton to Medicine Hat for Maint trips :-/  The best solution is to concentrate them in Area Training Centres like the old MTC in Wainwright, were the Base had the resources to support the Vehicles.
 
From Defence IQ today-International Armoured Vehicle News Roundup:

"Textron Marine & Land Systems has completed and shipped four pre-production Canadian Forces Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicles (TAPV) to locations in the United States and Canada for a series of testing and training activities."

Maybe it will happen.
 
Contract has already been signed, buds.
 
Old EO Tech said:
That is great for the PRes operators.  But who is going to support these vehicles?  The already stretched RegF Svc Bn's?  It's a long way from Edmonton to Medicine Hat for Maint trips :-/  The best solution is to concentrate them in Area Training Centres like the old MTC in Wainwright, were the Base had the resources to support the Vehicles.

That said Reg Force Svc BN's are still stretched, even if concentrated in a place like Wainwright. Though my solution for this would be to get Reserve Tech's trained on the TAPV, so that they can come in on Class B contracts (short or long term) to relieve pressure so to speak on the reg force. Not Ideal since you might only get 1 tech show up in a given summer or something but another set of hands is still better then no extra help. Either way with budget cuts, I doubt there is much money to pull in Reservists on Class be, and given the amount of time it takes to train techs both reg force and Pres, I don't see any short term solution that can work out.
 
Having a guy with some mechanical background training working with the guy that has taken the course is a good idea. Repairs go faster and seepage of knowledge takes place regardless of certificates or not. Focus your type training on the guys who are bright and generally good at passing on knowledge.
 
This is true on the tanks the crew does most of the work and the Mecs do the tecnical stuff. The more responsiblity give to the crew/Driver the more time freed up for the Tecs.
 
So I just read from the Canadian army facebook feed some troops out in 5 div went to valcartier and got a chance to get their hands on the TAPV as part of its trials, any one on here one of the lucky one and can give an impression of the vehicle?
 
Tank Troll said:
This is true on the tanks the crew does most of the work and the Mecs do the tecnical stuff. The more responsiblity give to the crew/Driver the more time freed up for the Tecs.
True for us too where anytime one of my LAV's went into the shop for work the driver (+ another driver usually) would go with the vehicle to do the bulk of the work with assistance and direction from the veh tech's.  Allowed the driver to learn and know more about their vehicle, and improve turn around times for my LAV's so I could get them back out and working.

 
That's a great idea, simple and logical, however no doubt someone would come along and say "Oh no, much more important that he takes the Harassment and Diversity course"
 
Depends on the unit and the person in charge. Use to be in the Strats if you sent a vehicle to the shop and no driver then it didn't get fixed. If the WO/Sgt doesn't have the balls to say Trooper/Pte so and so isn't going to be there for(insert what ever BS training) because he is in maintenance working on his vehicle. He will be there for the make up one at a latter date, then yeah that happens also.
 
Two TAPVs passed close by while I was in Val last week, and hearing them brake before I saw em I could have swore they were LSVWs
 
dangerboy said:
It is not an easy vehicle to get people qualified on and maintain their proficiency, especially with regards to the turret.  25mm ammo is not cheap and if you don't practise your turret drills you can lose them quickly.  The regular force has a hard enough time fighting skill fade I don't think that the reserves no mater how dedicated they are would be able to do it effectively.

- Ten years. I left that turret as a Coyote Troop Warrant in the Spring of 2003 and climbed into it as a Squadron Sergeant-Major on a LAV 3 the Winter of 2013.  Skill fade? I am the poster boy for skill fade.
 
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