Syria Superthread [merged]

[Greymatters]

Trading nuclear stuff for missiles is always bad, looks like the deal blew up in their face...  ;D

 

[Hedgehog18]

well if north korea traded there nuclear program equipment for syrian anti aircraft gear it would be even funnier lol

 

[Shec]

Tac nuc?   

US Air Force struck Syrian nuclear site

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JPost.com Staff , THE JERUSALEM POST  Nov. 2, 2007

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The September 6 raid over Syria was carried out by the US Air Force, the Al-Jazeera Web site reported Friday. The Web site quoted Israeli and Arab sources as saying that two strategic US jets armed with tactical nuclear weapons carried out an attack on a nuclear site under construction.

The sources were quoted as saying that Israeli F-15 and F-16 jets provided cover for the US planes.

The sources added that each US plane carried one tactical nuclear weapon and that the site was hit by one bomb and was totally destroyed.

At the beginning of October, Israel's military censor began to allow the local media to report on the raid without attributing their report to foreign sources. Nevertheless, details of the strike have remained clouded in mystery.

On October 28, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told the cabinet that he had apologized to Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan if Israel violated Turkish airspace during a strike on an alleged nuclear facility in Syria last month.

In a carefully worded statement that was given to reporters after the cabinet meeting, Olmert said: "In my conversation with the Turkish prime minister, I told him that if Israeli planes indeed penetrated Turkish airspace, then there was no intention thereby, either in advance or in any case, to - in any way - violate or undermine Turkish sovereignty, which we respect."

The New York Times reported on October 13 that Israeli planes struck at what US and Israeli intelligence believed was a partly constructed nuclear reactor in Syria on September 6, citing American and foreign officials who had seen the relevant intelligence reports.

According to the report, Israel carried out the report to send a message that it would not tolerate even a nuclear program in its initial stages of construction in any neighboring state.

On October 17, Syria denied that one of its representatives to the United Nations told a panel that an Israeli air strike hit a Syrian nuclear facility and added that "such facilities do not exist in Syria."

A UN document released by the press office had provided an account of a meeting of the First Committee, Disarmament and International Security, in New York, and paraphrased an unnamed Syrian representative as saying that a nuclear facility was hit by the raid.

However, the state-run Syrian Arab News Agency, SANA said media reports, apparently based on a UN press release, misquoted the Syrian diplomat.


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This article can also be read at http://www.jpost.com /servlet/Satellite?cid=1192380718519&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

 

[tomahawk6]

Shec the sat photos in this thread would indicate no nuclear weapon was used in the attack. Its pretty well determined that it was the Israelis who did it. A drop tank with Israeli markings came down in Turkey.

 

[Shec]

Thanks Tomahawk 6.  I didn' think so, its based on an Al Jazeera report which would never miss an opportunity to spread some "lets slam the Great and Little Satan" hyperbole.  Tac Nuc is such a giant step that whether or not Syria had a  program would cease to be the issue.

 

[GAP]

Watch.....within the next year that report will be disseminated throughout the Arab world and there will be many that take it as the gospel.

 

[tomahawk6]

There was zero outcry in the arab world when the attack occured which would indicate that the Syrians lack credibility because of their close ties to Iran.

 

[tamouh]

There was zero outcry in the arab world when the attack occured which would indicate that the Syrians lack credibility because of their close ties to Iran.

I believe te Arabs in general didn't care much to the Syrian response which was the typical "we reserve the right to retaliate". Something the rest of the Arab world have heard many times from Syria without any results. Some Arabs do see Syria deserves to be hit due to its alliance with Iran. This is especially true in the case of Gulf countries vs Syria & Iran.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

There is like a 0% chance that anyone, leastwise the US, could have gotten away with exploding a couple of nuclear weapons inside Syria and then covered it up.  If it was done, there would have been seismic evidence on hundreds of monitoring stations owned by governments and universities around the world- yet, no one has mentioned a thing.  There should be at least trace amounts of fallout showing up down-range.  Again, nothing heard.  Finally, it defies belief that a nuclear attack could be authorized by the US and not have at least some of those details leaked afterwards.

To me, it looks like the Syrians got caught with their hand in North Korea's nuclear cookie jar and the Israelis (probably assisted by the US and maybe even Turkey and a few others)  shut'em down- conventionally.  And now the Syrians are terrified to admit that the couple of billion they just spent on Russian Air Defence equipment was a huge waste of money and that they can be undressed by the Israelis or the US anytime that they feel like it.

Sucks to be them.  And Iran, too.  I'm sure the lesson was not lost on them, either.

 

[geo]

+1 SKT

 

[FastEddy]

[/quote]

+1 SKT, right on target (no pun intended).

Cheers.

 

[TCBF]

... The Norks traded nuclear stuff for wheat. ...

- Dead-end economics.  It's far cheaper just to grow the wheat.

 

[Mike Baker]

LINK

Israeli expert: Syrian site probable bomb plant

Tel Aviv University chemistry professor Uzi Even, who worked in the past at Israel's Dimona nuclear reactor, said satellite pictures of the site taken before the Israeli strike on September 6 showed no sign of the cooling towers and chimneys characteristic of reactors

More on link.

 

[a_majoor]

A slightly different explanation as to what was going on:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2983719.ece

December 2, 2007
Israelis hit Syrian ‘nuclear bomb plant’
Uzi Mahnaimi in Tel Aviv and Michael Sheridan in Seoul

ISRAEL’S top-secret air raid on Syria in September destroyed a bomb factory assembling warheads fuelled by North Korean plutonium, a leading Israeli nuclear expert has told The Sunday Times.

Professor Uzi Even of Tel Aviv University was one of the founders of the Israeli nuclear reactor at Dimona, the source of the Jewish state’s undeclared nuclear arsenal.

“I suspect that it was a plant for processing plutonium, namely, a factory for assembling the bomb,” he said. “I think the DPRK [Democratic People’s Republic of Korea] transferred to Syria weapons-grade plutonium in raw form, that is nuggets of easily transported metal in protective cans. I think the shaping and casting of the plutonium was supposed to be in Syria.”

All governments concerned - even the regime in Damascus - have tried to maintain complete secrecy about the raid.

They apparently fear that forcing a confrontation on the issue could spark a war between Israel and Syria, end the Middle East peace talks and wreck America’s extremely complex negotiations to disarm North Korea of its nuclear weapons.

The political stakes could hardly be higher. Plutonium is the element which fuelled the American atomic bomb that destroyed the Japanese city of Nagasaki on August 9, 1945.

Critics in the United States say proof that North Korea supplied such nuclear weapons material to Syria, a state technically at war with Israel, would shatter congressional confidence in the Bush administration’s diplomatic policy.

From beneath the veil of military censorship, western commentators have formed a consensus that the target was a nuclear reactor under construction.

But Even said that purely from scientific observation, he had reached a different conclusion - that it was a nuclear bomb factory, posing a more immediate danger to Israel. He said that satellite photos of the site, taken before the Israeli strike on September 6, showed no sign of the cooling towers and chimneys characteristic of nuclear reactors.

Syria’s haste after the attack to bury the site under tons of soil suggested that hundreds of square yards were contaminated and there were fears of radiation, the professor added.

Since then the Syrians have sealed up the location, levelled the site and diverted curious journalists to a place that had not been attacked by Israel.

The professor’s theory fits with authoritative technical evidence about North Korea’s nuclear weapons programme. The North Koreans are able to produce weapons-grade plutonium, which is electro-refined, alloyed and cast into shapes ready to be machined to fit into a warhead, according to a team of distinguished American nuclear weapons scientists who visited the country’s laboratories.

One of those scientists, Siegfried Hecker, was allowed to hold a sample and was told that it was “good bomb grade plutonium”, because it had a very low content of plutonium240, the isotope which reduces the overall quality of the material.

Assembly of a Nagasaki-type bomb involves mating a plutonium core with a uranium wrap and inserting a small quantity of polonium and beryllium to initiate the chain reaction.

“Plutonium is highly dangerous material,” explained the Israeli professor. “It is easily oxidised in air unless protective measures are taken. The oxide is easily dispersed as dust in air when machining plutonium to create the ‘pit’ [a hollow sphere in many nuclear weapons] and thus can be inhaled, causing a fatality in minute quantities.

“Plutonium pellets are handled and machined exclusively in a large array of ‘glove boxes’, to protect the technicians and their environment. That is why you need a relatively large containment building and cannot assemble a nuclear weapon in your garage - unless you are suicidal of course.”

The debris from a destructive raid on a weapons-building facility could therefore contain toxic radioactive waste. But the main danger for Syria would be the telltale exposure of the elements to surveillance and detection by America. This would explain the cover-up at the site.

North Korea, for its part, has more than enough plutonium to sell some of its stock to Syria.

The same team of visiting US scientists estimated that by late 2006 the nation had made 40-50kg (88-100lb) of the material. Between six and eight kilograms are needed for a weapon.

For the US and its allies the Syrian connection raises the deeply worrying possibility that North Korea has succeeded in building what the US scientists called “a sophisticated design with smaller dimensions and mass so as to fit onto a . . . medium-range missile”.

That puzzle was complicated when North Korea announced that it had tested its first nuclear bomb on October 9 last year. The yield of the blast was small - less than a 20th of the Nagasaki bomb - suggesting to some scientists that the device was sophisticated and small while others believed the North Koreans had simply not made a very good bomb.

Professor Even believes the North Koreans have not yet perfected small warheads. “The mechanical dimensioning at this stage is extremely demanding (less than 0.01mm). So is the casting of the explosives around the plutonium core and the initiation of the implosion,” he said.

The question is under urgent study by nations who might one day be targets of a North Korean device sold to Syria or Iran. Iran is known to have financed missile and weapons deals between North Korea and Syria, causing concern to Israel and the US. One day after the Israeli attack, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran, sent his nephew with a personal letter to Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian leader.

The professor’s theory of a clear and present danger that Damascus would get the bomb may be the only credible explanation why Israel carried out a military strike against Syria and risked an all-out conflict.

Indeed on September 6 Israel was ready for war with Syria. Israeli sources said its military chiefs assumed Syria would launch a retaliatory attack, but no reprisal came.

Meanwhile, President Bush has authorised his chief negotiator, Christopher Hill, to go on talking to North Korea in the search for a peaceful solution. Hill will visit Pyongyang this week to pursue negotiations after international technicians got to work on disabling the reactor at Yongbyon, the source of North Korea’s plutonium.

The North Korean dictator Kim Jong-il is supposed to make a full declaration of his nuclear programmes by December 31. The US says that must include information on his weapons deals with Syria and Iran.

 

[CougarKing]

Interesting. I'm surprised this hasn't been posted here yet.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080424/ap_on_...pe/nkorea_syria

Congress getting evidence on suspected nuclear facility
By PAMELA HESS, Associated Press Writer
21 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - A top U.S. official says the Syrian nuclear reactor allegedly built with North Korean design help and destroyed last year by Israeli jets was within weeks or months of being functional.

The official says the facility was mostly completed but still needed significant testing before it could be declared operational. The official spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.

No uranium — the fuel for a reactor — was evident at the site.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

WASHINGTON (AP) — A top member of the House intelligence committee said classified information being shared with members of Congress Thursday shows that an alleged Syrian nuclear reactor built with North Korean help and destroyed last year by Israeli jets threatened to spread nuclear weapons technology.

"This is a serious proliferation issue, both for the Middle East and the countries that may be involved in Asia," said Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R-Mich.

The Syrian reactor was similar in design to a North Korean reactor that has in the past produced small amounts of plutonium, a U.S. official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the information. The reactor was not yet complete but was far enough along to demonstrate a resemblance to the North Korean reactor at Yongbyon.

The official said no uranium — the fuel for a reactor — was evident on site.

CIA Director Michael Hayden and other intelligence officials went to Capitol Hill to brief Congress on the evidence related to the bombed Syrian facility, scheduling appearances before the House and Senate armed services, intelligence and foreign affairs committees.

Hoekstra and Intelligence Committee Chairman Silvestre Reyes, D-Texas, told reporters after the closed meeting that they were angry that the Bush administration had delayed briefing the full committee for eight months.

"There's not a clear and compelling case as to why this information is being made available to the committee today. There has been no change in circumstances as to the reasons why we were not told eight months ago," Hoekstra said.

Bush's failure to keep Congress informed has created friction that may imperil congressional support for Bush's policies toward North Korea and Syria.

That makes it "very difficult for them to move forward any policy initiatives in the Middle East or Asia any time soon," Hoekstra added.

The reactor site has been veiled in secrecy until this week, with U.S. intelligence and government officials refusing to confirm until now suspicions that the site was to be a nuclear reactor.

White House press secretary Dana Perino said the Bush administration would issue a public statement later in the day.

The administration has thus far refused to reveal why it chose to release the information now, but the briefings come at a critical time in the diplomatic effort to get North Korea to abandon its nuclear weapons.

As part of that process, the North is required to submit a "declaration" detailing its programs and proliferation activity, but the talks are stalled over Pyongyang's refusal to publicly admit the Syria connection. However, officials say the North Koreans are willing to accept international "concern" about unspecified proliferation.

By disclosing North Korean-Syrian cooperation to Congress, the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog and the public, the administration may have overcome that impasse by giving North Korea a "concern" that it can acknowledge in the declaration.

North Korea was aware that the administration would be releasing the information and its Foreign Ministry said Thursday that a visit to Pyongyang this week by a U.S. delegation to discuss the declaration made progress. It did not elaborate.

At the same time, the administration's release of the intelligence shines light on alleged malfeasance by Syria, which has signed an international treaty requiring it to disclose nuclear interests and activity, and vindicates Israel's decision to destroy the suspect site.

Syria has not declared the alleged reactor to the International Atomic Energy Agency nor was it under international safeguards, possibly putting Syria in breech of an international nuclear nonproliferation treaty.

In the Syrian capital of Damascus, legislator Suleiman Haddad, who heads the parliament's foreign relations committee, told The Associated Press that the videotape does not deserve a response.

"America is looking for any problem in order to accuse Syria," Haddad said by telephone. "Do we need Korean workers to work in Syria?"

"It is regretful to say that America is putting us among its enemies and therefore this talk (at Congress) does not deserve a response. America is trying to create an atmosphere of war in the region," Haddad said. He did not elaborate.

Israeli warplanes bombed the site in Syria on Sept. 6, 2007. Private analysts said at the time it appeared to have been the site of a reactor, based on commercial satellite imagery taken after the raid. Syria later razed the site. A new, larger building has been constructed in its place.

House Foreign Affairs Middle East Subcommittee Chairman Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-N.Y., sharply criticized the administration for the delay in the release of the information and the press leaks surrounding it.

"This is the selective control of information that led us to war in Iraq," he said.

U.S. officials were also briefing members of the U.N. nuclear watchdog, the International Atomic Energy Agency, at its Vienna headquarters.

John Rood, the under secretary of state for arms control, called IAEA chief Mohamed elBaradei on Thursday morning to detail the presentation and an interagency intelligence team was in Vienna to brief IAEA representatives either Thursday or Friday, a senior U.S. official said.

The revelation of alleged North Korean cooperation with Syria comes at a sensitive time for Pyongyang.

Associated Press Writers Barry Schweid, Matthew Lee, Edith Lederer, and Bassem Mroueh contributed to this report. end quote...

 

[RobJackson28]

I wouldn't go so far as to call that "proof" of nuclear ties between the two countries; compelling evidence none-the-less.

Edit: Thanks for the change of title.

 

[CougarKing]

Yet another website link on the nuclear ties between Syria and North Korea, plus pictures from the link showing the Syrian nuclear plant before and after an Israeli Air Force strike:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/fe65ca72-1209-11dd...&nclick_check=1

North Korea ‘helped Syria build N-plant’
By Demetri Sevastopulo in Washington

Published: April 24 2008 15:36 | Last updated: April 24 2008 15:36

 

[Rodahn]

While it may very well be a N Korean built/supported facility, I'm skeptical regarding the validity of the intelligence, given the past performance regarding "weapons of mass destruction".....

 

[tomahawk6]

Israel had compelling evidence about this being a nuclear facility before they attacked the facility. The design of the facility is identical to N. Korean nuclear facilities. North Koreans were at the facility. Notice the lack of condemnation from Syria or other arab countries.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/66084.0.html

 

[Rodahn]

As I said earlier Tomahawk, it may very well have been. But even your link notes possible.... Hardly what I would call irrefutable proof....

Washington official says Israeli surveillance shows possible Syrian nuclear installation stocked by North Korea, Israeli Arab newspaper claims target of alleged raid last week was Syrian missile base financed by Iran

Israel believes that North Korea has been supplying Syria and Iran with nuclear materials, a Washington defense official told the New York Times. “The Israelis think North Korea is selling to Iran and Syria what little they have left,” he said.

The official added that recent Israeli reconnaissance flights over Syria revealed possible nuclear installations that Israeli officials estimate might have been supplied with material from North Korea.