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Syria Superthread [merged]

57Chevy said:
From the proposed congressional resolution;
The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in connection with the use of chemical weapons or other weapons of mass destruction in the conflict in Syria in order to:

1. prevent or deter the use or proliferation (including the transfer to terrorist groups or other state or non-state actors), within, to or from Syria, of any weapons of mass destruction, including chemical or biological weapons or components of or materials used in such weapons.
---

Ok, I think I know what you're getting at.
I understand that it won't be changing the warfare itself.

So... just to get your post correctly: you're predicting that if the US intervenes then we'd see a drastic decrease in the use of NBC wpns?
And if the US does not intervene then you're predicting a drastic increase in the use of NBC wpns?
 
Iran (via the Syrian info-machine):  "Aggression on Syria would first affect the Zionist entity"
Chairman of the Foreign Policy and National Security Committee at the Iranian Shura Council, Alaeddin Boroujerdi, on Tuesday stressed that the parties inciting an aggression on Syria are declining, warning that any such aggression would inflame the whole region.

(....)

He warned during a meeting with Lebanese Caretaker Foreign and Expatriates Minister, Adnan Mansour, that any foreign military aggression on Syria would be the beginning of the outbreak of a dangerous crisis in the Middle East region.

He affirmed that the first party to be affected by the impacts of such a crisis is the Zionist entity ....
SANA, 3 Sept 13
 
Russia sends more warships to join those already in the Med, while the their carrier Kuznetsov carrier group heads there in December:

ITAR-TASS

Two large Russian amphibious assault ships sail off to Mediterranean
posted Tue 03 September 2013 01:11 PM


MOSCOW, September 3 (Itar-Tass) - Russia’s Black and Baltic Sea Fleets’ Ropucha-class landing ships Novocherkassk and Minsk have sailed off for the Mediterranean Sea, the press service of the Russian defence ministry told Itar-Tass on Tuesday.
,


(...)
 
Great discussion on US  options in Syria from the PBS Newshour.
I was particularly struck by the comments of Gen Jack Keane. Discussion starts at the 7.40 mark.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/video/
 
The US Senate will not be as tough a sell as in the US House of Representatives.

Defense News link

Senate Syria Resolution Would Limit Obama to 90 Days

Sep. 3, 2013 - 09:18PM

WASHINGTON — Members of the Senate Foreign Relations committee hammered out a deal on Tuesday evening that would set a 60-day deadline for military action in Syria, with one 30-day extension possible, according to a draft of the resolution.

The proposal, drafted by Sens. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., and Bob Corker, R-Tenn., would also bar the involvement of US ground forces in Syria, according to the draft. Menendez is the chairman of the foreign relations committee and Corker is the top Republican.

“Together we have pursued a course of action that gives the President the authority he needs to deploy force in response to the Assad regime’s criminal use of chemical weapons against the Syrian people, while assuring that the authorization is narrow and focused, limited in time, and assures that the Armed Forces of the United States will not be deployed for combat operations in Syria,” Menendez said in a statement.

The resolution could be voted on by the committee as early as Wednesday.

Meanwhile, in the House, Chris Van Hollen, D-Md., and Gerald Connolly, D-Va., introduced a draft resolution that would limit the duration of President Obama’s authority to 60 days.

It also specifically prohibits any American forces on the ground in Syria and restricts the president from repeating the use of force beyond the initial punitive strikes unless Obama certifies to Congress that the Syrian forces have repeated their use of chemical weapons.

Obama has repeatedly said that any military strike against Assad would be limited in scope and duration, and would not include US troops on the ground.
The conflict in Syria has left more than 100,000 dead.

Earlier on Tuesday, Obama said he was open to lawmakers rewriting his resolution seeking authorization for the use of force, which was criticized as too broad in scope by lawmakers on both sides of the aisle.

“I would not be going to Congress if I wasn’t serious about consultations,” Obama said. “I’m confident that we’re going to be able to come up with something that hits that mark.”

Menendez and Corker introduced their resolution soon after the foreign relations committee met on Tuesday to grill Secretary of State John Kerry, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Martin Dempsey, on the president’s plan for a military strike against Syria.

Obama announced his intention on Saturday to order a strike against the Assad regime, but said that he would first seek congressional authorization.
 
Out of the mouths of ...

Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Huffington Post
BTU3O_uCYAA7Jd-.jpg:large

Source: Huffington Post Comedy
 
The Wisdom of the Turks

link here http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/syria/articles/20130903.aspx

Key edit reproduced under the fair dealing provison of the copyright act fropm Strategy Page

The West is learning why the Turks were so glad to be rid of their Arab subjects after the Ottoman Empire collapsed a century ago. Then there is the corruption and intense hatreds found among the Arabs. It’s a very volatile and unpredictable part of the world and always has been. For centuries, the West was shielded from this reality because the Ottoman Turks ruled most of the Arabs. Western diplomats often heard the Turks complain about their Arab subjects. A favorite quip among the Turks was, “One should not involve oneself with the affairs of the Arabs.”
 
E.R. Campbell said:
The Los Angeles Times report that an (unnamed) US official told them that ".... he believed the White House would seek a level of intensity "just muscular enough not to get mocked" but not so devastating that it would prompt a response from Syrian allies Iran and Russia ... "They are looking at what is just enough to mean something, just enough to be more than symbolic," he said."


And that, not getting mocked, is what passes for foreign policy in Washington in 2013.

Henry Stimson and Dean Acheson would be ashamed to be Americans.


And, without comment, beyond two highlights, I offer Mark Steyn's assessment of this fiasco in a column which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the National Post:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/09/04/mark-steyn-the-timid-warmonger/
My emphasis added
5178-NationalPostLogo.jpg

The timid warmonger

Mark Steyn, Special to National Post

13/09/04

I see the Obama “reset” is going so swimmingly that the President is now threatening to go to war against a dictator who gassed his own people. Don’t worry, this isn’t anything like the dictator who gassed his own people that the discredited warmonger Bush spent 2002 and early 2003 staggering ever more punchily around the country inveighing against. The 2003 dictator who gassed his own people was the leader of the Baath Party of Iraq. The 2013 dictator who gassed his own people is the leader of the Baath Party of Syria. Whole other ball of wax. The administration’s ingenious plan is to lose this war in far less time than we usually take. In the unimprovable formulation of an unnamed official speaking to the Los Angeles Times, the White House is carefully calibrating a military action “just muscular enough not to get mocked.”

That would make a great caption for a Vanity Fair photo shoot of Obama gambolling in the surf at Martha’s Vineyard, but as a military strategy it’s not exactly Alexander the Great or the Duke of Wellington. And it’s trickier than it sounds: I’m sure Miley’s choreographer assured her she was “just muscular enough not to get mocked,” and one wouldn’t want to see the United States reduced to twerking arrhythmically to no avail in front of an unimpressed Bashar Assad’s Robin Thicke. Okay, okay, that metaphor’s as thinly stretched as Miley’s talent, so what does unmockable musculature boil down to? From the New York Times: “A wide range of officials characterize the action under consideration as ‘limited,’ perhaps lasting no more than a day or two.”

Yeah, I know, that’s what Edward III said about the Hundred Years War. But Obama seems to mean it: “An American official said that the initial target lists included fewer than 50 sites, including air bases where Syria’s Russian-made attack helicopters are. The list includes command and control centres as well as a variety of conventional military targets. Perhaps two to three missiles would be aimed at each site.”

I see the Obama “reset” is going so swimmingly that the President is now threatening to go to war against a dictator who gassed his own people. Don’t worry, this isn’t anything like the dictator who gassed his own people that the discredited warmonger Bush spent 2002 and early 2003 staggering ever more punchily around the country inveighing against. The 2003 dictator who gassed his own people was the leader of the Baath Party of Iraq. The 2013 dictator who gassed his own people is the leader of the Baath Party of Syria. Whole other ball of wax. The administration’s ingenious plan is to lose this war in far less time than we usually take. In the unimprovable formulation of an unnamed official speaking to the Los Angeles Times, the White House is carefully calibrating a military action “just muscular enough not to get mocked.”

That would make a great caption for a Vanity Fair photo shoot of Obama gambolling in the surf at Martha’s Vineyard, but as a military strategy it’s not exactly Alexander the Great or the Duke of Wellington. And it’s trickier than it sounds: I’m sure Miley’s choreographer assured her she was “just muscular enough not to get mocked,” and one wouldn’t want to see the United States reduced to twerking arrhythmically to no avail in front of an unimpressed Bashar Assad’s Robin Thicke. Okay, okay, that metaphor’s as thinly stretched as Miley’s talent, so what does unmockable musculature boil down to? From the New York Times: “A wide range of officials characterize the action under consideration as ‘limited,’ perhaps lasting no more than a day or two.”

Yeah, I know, that’s what Edward III said about the Hundred Years War. But Obama seems to mean it: “An American official said that the initial target lists included fewer than 50 sites, including air bases where Syria’s Russian-made attack helicopters are. The list includes command and control centres as well as a variety of conventional military targets. Perhaps two to three missiles would be aimed at each site.”

The BBC footage is grisly; the British media have been far more invested in the Syrian civil war than their U.S. colleagues. But what’s the net effect of all the harrowing human-interest stories? This week, David Cameron recalled Parliament from its summer recess to permit the people’s representatives to express their support for the impending attack. Instead, for the first time since the British defeat at Yorktown in 1782, the House of Commons voted to deny Her Majesty’s Government the use of force. Under the Obama “reset,” even the Coalition of the Willing is unwilling. “It’s clear to me that the British Parliament and the British people do not wish to see military action,” said the prime minister. So the Brits are out, and, if he goes at all, Obama will be waging war without even Austin Powers’s Union Jack fig leaf.

“This House will not fight for king and country”? Not exactly. What the British people are sick of, quite reasonably enough, is ineffectual warmongering, whether in the cause of Blairite liberal interventionism or of Bush’s big-power assertiveness. The problem with the American way of war is that, technologically, it can’t lose, but, in every other sense, it can’t win. No one in his right mind wants to get into a tank battle or a naval bombardment with the guys responsible for over 40% of the planet’s military expenditures. Which is why these days there aren’t a lot of tank battles. The consummate interventionist Robert Kagan wrote in his recent book that the American military “remains unmatched.” It’s unmatched in the sense that the only guy in town with a tennis racket isn’t going to be playing a lot of tennis matches. But the object of war, in Liddell Hart’s famous distillation, is not to destroy the enemy’s tanks (or Russian helicopters) but his will. And on that front America loses, always. The “unmatched” superpower cannot impose its will on Kabul kleptocrats, Pashtun goatherds, Egyptian generals, or Benghazi militia. There is no reason to believe Syria would be an exception to this rule. America’s inability to win ought to be a burning national question, but it’s not even being asked.

Let us stipulate that many of those war-weary masses are ignorant and myopic. But at a certain level they grasp something that their leaders don’t: For a quarter-century, from Kuwait to Kosovo to Kandahar, the civilized world has gone to war only in order to save or liberate Muslims. The Pentagon is little more than central dispatch for the U.S. military’s Muslim Fast Squad. And what do we have to show for it? Liberating Syria isn’t like liberating the Netherlands: In the Middle East, the enemy of our enemy is also our enemy. Yes, those BBC images of schoolchildren with burning flesh are heart-rending. So we’ll get rid of Assad and install the local branch of al-Qaeda or the Muslim Brotherhood or whatever plucky neophyte democrat makes it to the presidential palace first — and then, instead of napalmed schoolyards, there will be, as in Egypt, burning Christian churches and women raped for going uncovered.

So what do we want in Syria? Obama can’t say, other than for him to look muscular without being mocked, like a camp bodybuilder admiring himself in the gym mirror.

Oh, well. If the British won’t be along for the ride, the French are apparently still in. What was the old gag from a decade ago during those interminable UN resolutions with Chirac saying “Non!” every time? Ah, yes: “Going to war without the French is like going hunting without an accordion.” Oddly enough, the worst setback for the Islamic imperialists in recent years has been President Hollande’s intervention in Mali, where, unlike the money-no-object Pentagon, the French troops had such undernourished supply lines that they had to hitch a ride to the war on C-17 transports from the Royal Air Force and Royal Canadian Air Force. And yet they won — insofar as anyone ever really wins on that benighted sod.

Meanwhile, the hyperpower is going to war because Obama wandered off prompter and accidentally made a threat. So he has to make good on it, or America will lose its credibility. But he only wants to make good on it in a perfunctory and ineffectual way. So America will lose its credibility anyway.
Maybe it’s time to learn the accordion …

National Review Online

Mark Steyn, a National Review columnist, is the author of After America: Get Ready for Armageddon. © 2013 Mark Steyn. This column originally appeared on National Review Online.
 
Beck makes the case that Putin makes more sense than Obama and all the Washington types supporting him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GfHSPLW63Gg


And from the "How time changes everything" files . . .

 
A summary of a recent study out of the Rand Corporation....
As the Syrian civil war drags into its third year with mounting casualties and misery among the civilian population, and the large-scale use of chemical weapons, interest in the possibility of military intervention by the United States and its allies is growing despite U.S. wariness of becoming involved in a prolonged sectarian quagmire. Without presuming that military intervention is the right course, this report considers the goals an intervention relying on airpower alone might pursue and examines the requirements, military potential, and risks of five principal missions that intervening air forces might be called on to carry out: negating Syrian airpower, neutralizing Syrian air defenses, defending safe areas, enabling opposition forces to defeat the regime, and preventing the use of Syrian chemical weapons. It finds that (1) destroying the Syrian air force or grounding it through intimidation is operationally feasible but would have only marginal benefits for protecting Syrian civilians; (2) neutralizing the Syrian air defense system would be challenging but manageable, but it would not be an end in itself; (3) making safe areas in Syria reasonably secure would depend primarily on the presence of ground forces able and willing to fend off attacks, and defending safe areas not along Syria’s borders would approximate intervention on the side of the opposition; (4) an aerial intervention against the Syrian government and armed forces could do more to help ensure that the Syrian regime would fall than to determine what would replace it; and (5) while airpower could be used to reduce the Assad regime’s ability or desire to launch large-scale chemical attacks, eliminating its chemical weapon arsenal would require a large ground operation. Any of these actions would involve substantial risks of escalation by third parties, or could lead to greater U.S. military involvement in Syria.

A bit more detail in the news release:
.... The five missions are:

•Negate Syrian airpower by maintaining a “no-fly zone” over Syria, or by destroying the Syrian air force. The likely availability of nearby bases in Turkey and elsewhere make this a relatively easy task for the U.S. and allied forces, although maintaining a prolonged no-fly zone could impose significant burdens on the forces involved. Negating Syrian airpower would have only a marginal direct effect on protecting Syrian civilians, as most civilian casualties have been caused by government ground forces.

•Neutralize Syria's extensive but mostly antiquated air defenses, which is well within the U.S. military's ability. Syria's integrated air defense system primarily consists of 1970s-era radar and surface-to-air missile technology, which U.S. pilots were able to overcome in Iraq and Serbia. This would begin with intense air and cruise missile strikes against Syrian air bases and air defense systems, followed by a longer hunt for mobile missiles. However, such an effort would be used to facilitate other operations, not an end in itself.

•Create safe areas where Syrian civilians could be largely — but not completely — protected from air attack, artillery bombardment and direct ground attack by U.S. and allied air forces. Effectively protecting the civilians in these areas would require competent forces on the ground. If not provided by the U.S. and its allies, the forces would need to be provided by the Syrian opposition, in which case protecting safe areas would also amount to providing air cover for anti-regime forces.

•Enable opposition forces to defeat President Bashar al-Assad's regime, using airpower similar to that employed by the U.S. to overthrow the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2001. Such a mission would require the use of fighters, bombers and remotely piloted aircraft to strike Syrian army and other regime targets. The authors assess that the current balance of the war favors the regime, and that the opposition forces would require substantial military support to defeat Syrian ground forces and gain the upper hand. Such a mission, the authors warn, would help both desirable opposition groups and extremists. Moreover, there is a risk that a successful mission could lead to instability spilling over Syria's borders to Turkey, Lebanon, Iraq or beyond, and to widespread retribution against populations associated with the defeated regime.

•Prevent the use of Syrian chemical weapons by using air attacks to strike Assad's chemical weapons stockpiles and their delivery systems, or deter future use of chemical weapons. Attacking or threatening to attack targets Assad values more than his chemical weapons stockpile would help avoid creating “use-it-or-lose-it” incentives for additional chemical attacks. The authors warn that while airpower could be used to reduce the Assad regime's ability or desire to launch large-scale chemical attacks, eliminating its chemical weapon arsenal would require a large ground operation ....
 
Assad is an Alawite. They are roughly 12% of the population. If he loses outright I can guarantee it will be ethnic cleansing time. If he did actually use such weapons he must already be in a very desperate position. You would have to be nuts to take a bite of that shit sandwich.

Who decided America could act unilaterally anyway? The optics would have been infinitely better if they made Russia use their veto.  This just looks bad and eats away at their credibility.
 
Nemo888 said:
.....If he did actually use such weapons he must already be in a very desperate position. You would have to be nuts to take a bite of that shit sandwich.
Which presumes he thinks the same way as us; I have my doubts.  Perhaps he sees his adversaries as insignficant, lesser beings -- with no concern as to their feelings or that of world opinion. After all, this is his civil war, presumably the rest of the world has no 'dog in that fight.'

Who decided America could act unilaterally anyway? The optics would have been infinitely better if they made Russia use their veto.  This just looks bad and eats away at their credibility.
Perhaps you missed it; they've been trying to gather a coalition, preferably with a UN mandate, to avoid unilateral action.  Mind you, very few places have reported on that.  ::)
 
As said earlier, it'll be in the House where Syria will be a harder sell...

National Post link

WASHINGTON — A Senate panel has voted to give President Barack Obama the authority to use military force against Syria in response to a deadly chemical weapons attack.

The vote Wednesday was 10-7, with one senator voting present. The full Senate is expected to vote on the measure next week.


It was only 10 short years ago that France was the target of much grumbling and silly insults around town in Washington, D.C. As George W. Bush was assembling his coalition of the willing, France was markedly unwilling, and spoke out loudly and often against U.S.-led plans to invade Iraq. Now, as President Barack Obama is making his case for a limited military strike against Syria, France is loudly arguing in favour of action. And is being pretty blunt about it, to boot.
.
The resolution would permit Obama to order
a limited military mission against Syria, as long as it doesn’t exceed 90 days and involves no American troops on the ground for combat operations.

In an impassioned appeal for support at home and abroad, Obama said Wednesday the credibility of the international community and Congress is on the line in the debate over how to respond to Syria’s use of chemical weapons. As Obama made his case overseas, Congress debated whether a proposed resolution authorizing military force would shift the momentum after more than two years of Syrian civil war.

The Senate Foreign Relations Committee delayed a public meeting and huddled in private for more than three hours after Sen. John McCain, an outspoken advocate of intervention, said he did not support the latest version of the Senate resolution to authorize force. The Arizona Republican said he wants more than cruise missile strikes and other limited action, seeking a stronger response aimed at “reversing the momentum on the battlefield” and hastening the departure of Syrian President Bashar Assad.

On the other side of the debate, Sen. Jim Inhofe, R-Okla., said he was not persuaded to support military action, saying the military has been “decimated” by budget cuts and “we’re just not in a position to take on any major confrontation.”

Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., said U.S. involvement could well “make the tragedy worse” in Syria, but he predicted that advocates of military intervention would win in the Senate.

“The only chance of stopping what I consider to be bad policy would be in the House,” he said.

(...)
 
Not surprising considering the Saudis and other Gulf states are most probably rooting for and bankrolling the arms and supplies for the more radical factions among Syria's Sunni rebels... 

Kerry: Arab countries offered to pay for invasion
Aaron Blake

Secretary of State John Kerry said at Wednesday’s hearing that Arab counties have offered to pay for the entirety of unseating President Bashar al-Assad if the United States took the lead militarily.

“With respect to Arab countries offering to bear costs and to assess, the answer is profoundly yes,” Kerry said. “They have. That offer is on the table.”

Asked by Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-Fla.) about how much those countries would contribute, Kerry said they have offered to pay for all of a full invasion.

“In fact, some of them have said that if the United States is prepared to go do the whole thing the way we’ve done it previously in other places, they’ll carry that cost,” Kerry said. “That’s how dedicated they are at this.

...

Washington Post link
 
Are they going to cover the widowers pensions for the countless US/Coalition troops that will die because they don't want to get their hands dirty?
 
Apparently Michael de Adder spiked (or had spiked) an editorial cartoon idea on the whole Syria debacle.

http://deadder.net/2013/08/29/killed-cartoon/
 
S.M.A. said:
Not surprising considering the Saudis and other Gulf states are most probably rooting for and bankrolling the arms and supplies for the more radical factions among Syria's Sunni rebels...

Well, let them fund away. They can enroll and equipthe Muslim Brotherhoods and their own radicals, and throw them into the fray against the Iranian backed Hezbollah fighters and actual Iranian units on the ground as well.

All *we* need to do is maintain a quarentine around the region and smack down any attempts to embroil the West in the conflict on one side or the other. The Russians and Chinese have enough "interests" in the region that they may feel compelled to go in to support their clients; good for them! and it could not happen to a nicer bunch of people. </sarc>
 
Nemo888 said:
Assad is an Alawite. They are roughly 12% of the population. If he loses outright I can guarantee it will be ethnic cleansing time. If he did actually use such weapons he must already be in a very desperate position. You would have to be nuts to take a bite of that crap sandwich.

Who decided America could act unilaterally anyway? The optics would have been infinitely better if they made Russia use their veto.  This just looks bad and eats away at their credibility.

Not necessarily desperate, but possibly a fluke. This is not the first time Assad forces had used chemical agents in the war, but it is the largest ever. It could have been an under estimation of the world response, or an error in the amount of chemicals loaded on the war head.

US had vetoed almost all UN Security Council resolutions against Israel, how did this affect its credibility? The way I see it, Russia/China don't care much for the Syrian regime, opposition or the whole ME. Historically, Russia and before it the USSR had little appetite to do anything beyond its borders aside from selling weapons. Come to memory their objection at the UN Security Council to the Mission in Bosnia. Exactly similar to Syria's case now.
 
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