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Story states a new book claims Canadian efforts fell short in Kandahar

Journeyman said:
Mind you, in a couple of instances of having seen the sausage-making process from the inside, I wasn't sure how anyone could compliment us on the final result.  ;D

I think you have highlighted a major challenge for us, the trait embedded in our military DNA that concentrates on perfecting the process, and believing that good results automatically flow from perfect process. In other words, garbage in, perfection out.
 
CombatDoc said:
As for your suggestion that US soldiers during the RIP stated that they "could never match what we did" and that Cdn troops were "more competent and professional than they were", that certainly does not sound like any US soldier that I have met.  One of the drawbacks of being the sole remaining superpower is that you begin to believe your own press.  While I agree that our soldiers are amongst the most competent and professional, it would be out of character for our US counterparts to state/admit that.

Most US civilians think Canadian soldiers are buffoons, mostly because we are hardly ever mentioned in major entertainment streams, therefore we must be insignificant. 

Most US soldiers think Canadians are less capable, mostly because many of them have never worked with Canadians before. 

Those who have worked with us have both negative and positive things to say, as our soldiers and military culture are a bit different from theirs. 

In general almost every US soldier I worked with admitted Canadians are 'as good as they are', but not neccesarily better than they are. 
 
Old Sweat said:
I think you have highlighted a major challenge for us, the trait embedded in our military DNA that concentrates on perfecting the process, and believing that good results automatically flow from perfect process. In other words, garbage in, perfection out.
The process of Garbage In, Perfection Out is so much more desirable that the converse process of PIGO.  ;D
 
This piece bears on the issue raised in the book, but does not exclusively deal with it. It is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


After Kandahar, the history war


David Bercuson

Special to The Globe and Mail


Published Thursday, Aug. 02 2012, 2:00 AM EDT

Last updated Wednesday, Aug. 01 2012, 5:31 PM EDT

Virtually every significant war in history is followed by another, smaller war: the bloodless war among historians, journalists and veterans to set the historical narrative of the war that just ended. That’s what the former Athenian general Thucydides was doing when he wrote his account of the Peloponnesian War between Athens and Sparta. And now we have Afghanistan, still being fought, with the postwar accounts already appearing, written mostly by journalists – including a few very good ones by Canadians – and generals and diplomats.

Canada has not fared well in many of the accounts by non-Canadians – in particular, recent books by respected Washington Post correspondent Rajiv Chandrasekaran, British General David Richards and Britain’s former ambassador to Afghanistan, Sherard Cowper-Coles.

Mr. Chandrasekaran’s book is not a memoir; it is based fundamentally on interviews, as most recent journalistic accounts are. That’s not a criticism of the book, because the real evidence of what happened in the war, from the highest political and diplomatic levels to the almost daily encounters between the soldiers at the sharp end and the Taliban, is mostly still classified and will remain so for years to come.

Nonetheless, a clear picture is beginning to emerge from these three books, and others, of a Canadian war effort that was confused, somewhat amateurish, overly optimistic and, in many parts of Kandahar province, simply ineffective. Mr. Chandrasekaran, for example, relates the disappointment of some U.S. commanders at Canada’s failure to actually occupy and secure the city of Kandahar, concentrating instead on keeping the main roads open and attempting to secure corridors from Kabul to Kandahar and from the Pakistani border at Spin Boldak to the Panjwai and Zhari districts, about 25 kilometres west of Kandahar city – the heart of the insurgency.

General Richards is particularly critical that Canada opted to take on Kandahar province instead of Helmand, where the British fought, because there weren’t enough Canadians for the job. The British had roughly three times the number of troops in Helmand (immediately to the west of Kandahar) than Canada had.

There is much truth to these evaluations of Canadian accomplishments in Afghanistan and they have recently been written about by Canadians as well. But there is also much truth to the old Chaucerian remonstrance that those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. It applies equally to writers judging the conduct of other nations in war as it does to life in general.

Consider the British effort in Helmand province. The United Kingdom sent troops there equipped with Land Rovers that could not stand up to Taliban IEDs. They tended to place their operating bases inside villages that were controlled by the Taliban and wound up being constantly shot at, especially at night. Though equipped with Chinook helicopters, the British positions were so vulnerable that they were often under siege. In the summer of 2006, the road-bound Canadian Battle Group led by Lieutenant-Colonel Ian Hope was forced to leave its position in Kandahar province to rescue an important British position in Helmand.

Now, none of these failures are of themselves indicative of the overall British effort in Helmand. Rather, they are indicative of the very real fact that everyone who fights wars makes mistakes and that shortcomings can be found throughout a campaign and at all levels of command. Some British journalists, military historians and veterans too often write as if the British invented war and are the best at it. And that attitude is too often reflected in their observations of how Canadians performed, especially in the Second World War.

As for the Americans, it can only be said that the biggest blunder made by any country in the Afghan campaign was made by the United States, in virtually abandoning the necessary war there for the optional war in Iraq. Was Canada too weak on the ground in Kandahar? Without a doubt. But Canada was there between 2006 and 2008 – and the Americans were not. And U.S. mistakes were made at all levels, from the White House and the Department of Defence to the Korengal Valley in northeast Afghanistan, where dozens of American soldiers died trying to hold an indefensible area from forward bases far removed from close support. They abandoned the Korengal after about a year.

Whatever Canada may or may not have accomplished in Kandahar, one fact is indisputable: The Taliban could not seize it. The British and Americans have much to evaluate regarding their own performance. As do Canadians.
 
OS, a relatively good piece by Bercuson, but he failed to qualify this statement:

But Canada was there between 2006 and 2008 – and the Americans were not.

He should have said, "- and the Americans were not there, however, in any substantive numbers."

His statement, while surely intended to be comparative to Canadian forces present at the time, is factually incorrect, and thus weakens an otherwise reasonable article.


Regards
G2G
 
I am reviving this thread because I just finished the book. Suffice to say the Canadian media made the Hindu Kush out of a molehill. The Canadian presence is mentioned a total of 14 times in a 333 page book. The theme is the mishandling of the war by the US Government. The following extracts from the final chapter illustrate my point:

. . . Our government was incapable of meeting the challenge. Our generals and diplomats were too ambitious and arrogant. Our uniformed and civilian bureaucracies were rife with internal rivalries and go-it-alone agencies. Our development experts were inept. Our leaders were distracted.

and

For years we dwelled on the limitations of the Afghans. We should have focused on ours.
 
Old Sweat said:
I am reviving this thread because I just finished the book. Suffice to say the Canadian media made the Hindu Kush out of a molehill. The Canadian presence is mentioned a total of 14 times in a 333 page book. The theme is the mishandling of the war by the US Government. The following extracts from the final chapter illustrate my point:

. . . Our government was incapable of meeting the challenge. Our generals and diplomats were too ambitious and arrogant. Our uniformed and civilian bureaucracies were rife with internal rivalries and go-it-alone agencies. Our development experts were inept. Our leaders were distracted.

and

For years we dwelled on the limitations of the Afghans. We should have focused on ours.

You sure they're talking about the US in those last two quotes, and not the Canadians?
 
For starters, check why the Marines went to Helmund and why they did not report to ISAF. And there is a whole chapter dumping on the Brits that must have the Duke of Wellington rolling over in his grave.
 
Hatchet Man said:
So it's a good read then ??

It is a good general military/political history that focuses on the bigger picture. Reading between the lines, and it is not too difficult, the command and control arrangements in theatre sucked.
 
Old Sweat said:
It is a good general military/political history that focuses on the bigger picture. Reading between the lines, and it is not too difficult, the command and control arrangements in theatre sucked.

Oh yeah. That certainly happened. The US Unified Combatant Command system is supposed to be THE cornerstone of how the US fights wars -- but the US kept flip-flopping on whether they wanted Afghanistan to be a Central Command war (and therefore run through Tampa) or a European Command war (and therefore run through NATO). The compromise, where Commander ISAF reported to both chains, wasn't a great one.

And in addition to the NATO/US C2 confusion -- we never did manage to put coalition forces and afghan forces under the same tactical command -- I can't remember seeing ANA units actually being TACON or OPCON to ISAF formations. Or vice versa.
 
Ostrozac said:
Oh yeah. That certainly happened. The US Unified Combatant Command system is supposed to be THE cornerstone of how the US fights wars -- but the US kept flip-flopping on whether they wanted Afghanistan to be a Central Command war (and therefore run through Tampa) or a European Command war (and therefore run through NATO). The compromise, where Commander ISAF reported to both chains, wasn't a great one.

And in addition to the NATO/US C2 confusion -- we never did manage to put coalition forces and afghan forces under the same tactical command -- I can't remember seeing ANA units actually being TACON or OPCON to ISAF formations. Or vice versa.

The national caveats also entered into the equation. Furthermore, as I noted above the USMC established a separate chain of command for its contingent, reporting to a Marine general in Central Command, thus bypassing in theatre commanders.
 
I noted that this was the consensus in Helmand....

Allies_zps8aac5619.jpg
 
Old Sweat said:
The arrow could go both ways.  :salute:

Right to left w, the arrow's text could be "I'm with arrogant, self-important, over-the-hill type."  :nod:

Never let it be said that senior Brits ever thought anything but that they were the 'bee's knees', and that everyone else could still take a few lessons from them.  This from the folks who put their QM on another mountain than their Garrison...well done, POHMs!  ;)
 
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