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Status on Victoria-class Submarines?

Eye In The Sky said:
Do we want true *bluewater* boats, or just littoral/coastal ones more suited for the stuff in close to Canada?  I think that is the first question...what do we want to do with them.  That should help determine #s and class.

The nice thing about the A26 is that it comes in three different versions; one version is designed for littoral operations, and the other two for oceanic and oceanic extended range operations. So you could buy two/three different subs, which would have some common components, which would cut down on training costs.
 
Canadian navy pressing ahead on life extensions for submarines

OTTAWA — The Department of National Defence is pushing ahead with plans to extend the lives of Canada's submarine fleet, with the head of the navy hoping some work will start in the coming months.

The movement comes as countries around the world have stepped up investments in their submarine and anti-submarine fleets to protect their waters — and operate in waters not under their control.

Canada's four Victoria-class submarines have a troubled history since they were bought second-hand from Britain in 1998, with successive governments investing hundreds of millions of dollars in constant repairs and upgrades.

But in an interview with The Canadian Press, Royal Canadian Navy commander Vice-Admiral Ron Lloyd said the diesel-powered submarines — HMCS Chicoutimi, Victoria, Corner Brook and Windsor — have finally turned a corner.

Lloyd specifically pointed to HMCS Chicoutimi's having recently spent 197 days in the Pacific and Asia even as HMCS Windsor was patrolling the Mediterranean with NATO as proof the submarines are living up to their potential.

"The fact we had two boats concurrently deployed, if that doesn't speak to the success of the program, I don't know what does," said Lloyd, who will retire from the military later this year after three years as navy commander.

The clock has been ticking on the four vessels: without upgrades, the first of the submarines will reach the end of its life in 2022, according to documents obtained through access to information, while the last will retire in 2027.

But the Liberals' defence policy promised to extend the lives of the vessels and Lloyd said defence officials are now working through the details to make sure they can continue to operate into the 2030s.

More extensive work is expected to start in about three or four years but Lloyd said efforts are underway to start implementing some minor upgrades by March.

Exactly how much upgrading all four submarines will cost remains uncertain, but Lloyd said the figure that officials are working with is about $2 billion.

Some experts have previously called for Canada to consider new submarines, rather than extending the lives of the ones it has, but the government has said upgrading the Victoria-class ships is more "prudent."

Other experts have said the country doesn't need such expensive vessels. But many other countries around the world are investing in submarine and antisubmarine fleets. NATO has specifically raised concerns about Russian submarines in the North Atlantic, while Canadian frigate commanders patrolling in the Atlantic and Mediterranean have reported more foreign submarines in recent years.

"The most proliferated weapon system right now on the planet are submarines," Lloyd said. "They by themselves can impact the outcome of a battle space. And so putting a submarine into a body of water instantly changes the calculus that are currently operating in those bodies of water."

Aside from upgrading its submarines, the Canadian military has started to return to its Cold War role as a leader in antisubmarine warfare in the North Atlantic by upgrading its frigates and maritime patrol planes and adding new maritime helicopters.
https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2019/01/22/canadian-navy-pressing-ahead-on-life-extensions-for-submarines/#.XEhnl_x7nUJ
 
I think part of a submarine's life is determined by whether or not the pressure hull has been cut and rewelded?
Or is that just for the diving depth?
 
Can someone explain why it costs $2 Billion to extend the life of just 4 ships? Aren't new SSKs about $1 Billion each already?Why not just start a competition now?

Could almost copy the Attack Class competition, with the one change being additional length/designed for future modifications (adding cells, additional batteries, etc..).
 
LoboCanada said:
Can someone explain why it costs $2 Billion to extend the life of just 4 ships? Aren't new SSKs about $1 Billion each already?Why not just start a competition now?

Could almost copy the Attack Class competition, with the one change being additional length/designed for future modifications (adding cells, additional batteries, etc..).
  Except we still need to complete a mid-life overhaul to get our current fleet to last until the new boats are commissioned.  That process, if started today, would require at least 10 to 15 years before the first one was ready for use and that is pre-supposing that they get the competition right first time.  do you want to put any money on that happening?
 
New SSKs could be purchased for more like $500 million (assuming they were purchased off the shelf- which I suppose would never happen) so for the price of the upgrade we could likely buy 4 brand new boats incorporating all the latest AIP tech... 2 Billion dollar upgrade program is beyond stupid, its also quite likely how it will play out.  ::)
 
LoboCanada said:
Can someone explain why it costs $2 Billion to extend the life of just 4 ships? Aren't new SSKs about $1 Billion each already?Why not just start a competition now?

Could almost copy the Attack Class competition, with the one change being additional length/designed for future modifications (adding cells, additional batteries, etc..).

That's a lot,for example here in the Netherlands "the extend life program"(IPW)for the 4 Walrusses will cost about 100 million,this includes:

Op 13 mei 2013 ondertekende de Defensie Materieels Organisatie (DMO) het contract met Imtech Marine Netherlands voor het Instandhoudingsprogramma Walrusklasse, of IP-W. Daarmee ging het project ook officieel van start. De vier boten worden gedurende zeven jaar gemoderniseerd. Het programma behelst:

• conservering van de drukhuid (nieuw verfsysteem en herstel drukhuid)-repairs pressure hull and a new paint
• vervanging van een aantal verouderde sensoren (sonar, navigatieperiscoop)-new sonars,optronical mast,(etc)
• verbeterde communicatiesystemen, zowel intern als extern (datalink, satcom)-upgraded/modernized communicationsystems
• vervanging van Gipsy door nieuw Combat Management System (CMS)-New Combat System
• aanpassingen aan een aantal platformsystemen (bijv. de luchtmonitoring)-New sensors,for example air quality monitors

Plus an extra 100 million for the modernisation/upgrading for the Mk 48 Torpedoes.(for better possibillities/use in shallow waters)

So in total about 200-250 million,for the 4 subs.

Program started in 2013 and will end in 2019(all should be done by then,last one is now in,btw)

Now "life"will be extended to about 2025.(then the new subs will/should start to come into service)

 
Maybe the refit is a complete rebuild a sort of my grandfather's axe situation as it is often easier to get a repair budget through than new capital?

I think a refit is necessary anyways as neither the Dutch or Australian projects are anywhere near ready. What hot or warm SSK lines are running now?

Soryu mk2 Japan
KSS-III      South Korea
Scorpene  France
S-80        Spain
U-218      Germany

We would have to move lightning quick from a procurement standpoint to choose one of the above designs
 
My first choice would be Soryu, but japanese may be reluctant to export their technology. Then the german type 212 -CD , with extended range compared to the standard version, might fit RCN needs.
 
suffolkowner said:
Maybe the refit is a complete rebuild a sort of my grandfather's axe situation as it is often easier to get a repair budget through than new capital?

I think a refit is necessary anyways as neither the Dutch or Australian projects are anywhere near ready. What hot or warm SSK lines are running now?

Soryu mk2 Japan
KSS-III      South Korea
Scorpene  France
S-80        Spain
U-218      Germany

We would have to move lightning quick from a procurement standpoint to choose one of the above designs

You forgot Sweden's A-26,which are being build(1st of 2) as we speak(Oceanic Version) :nod:

And true,first projects that will be started are the 12 MCM ships(replacement Tripartite class,decision probably next month or so,on which design is chosen),Belgium leads in this project,after that (probably in the

next few months also)a decision will be made on which design is chosen to replace the ASW/GP frigates.(Netherlands leads)and will be a class of 4(to start with,possibly an option for 2 more for the

Netherlands),shortly after that(thinking around May),the winning design for the new sub will be chosen,so busy times for the Dutch Navy.

Also an extra CSS(Combat Support Ship) will be build,and joining the Navy around 2021/22(decision has been made about that one)

Basically modernising 3/4 of our Navy.
 
Karel Doorman said:
You forgot Sweden's A-26,which are being build(1st of 2) as we speak(Oceanic Version) :nod:

And true,first projects that will be started are the 12 MCM ships(replacement Tripartite class,decision probably next month or so,on which design is chosen),Belgium leads in this project,after that (probably in the

next few months also)a decision will be made on which design is chosen to replace the ASW/GP frigates.(Netherlands leads)and will be a class of 4(to start with,possibly an option for 2 more for the

Netherlands),shortly after that(thinking around May),the winning design for the new sub will be chosen,so busy times for the Dutch Navy.

Also an extra CSS(Combat Support Ship) will be build,and joining the Navy around 2021/22(decision has been made about that one)

Basically modernising 3/4 of our Navy.

Thanks I didn't realize the A26 was that far along, delivery scheduled for 2022, just in time to start building new subs for Canada!
 
Unfortunately we 'upgrade' everything, even if that means it costs more in the long run.  We've done it with fighters, MPAs, and are doing it with the Victoria class. 

It is the Canadian way (based off the past "how we've done things" since...when CANEUR closed, or probably even before that!).
 
DND extends life of submarine escape suits beyond expiry date as fleet shows its age

Liberals plan to modernize and sail the navy's 4 aging submarines until 2040

The Canadian navy's stock of survival suits, which allow submariners to escape in an emergency from a sunken boat, has been thrown a lifeline after much of the equipment had reached its expiry date, federal documents reveal.

The critical safety suits give stranded crew members the ability to ascend from a depth of 183 metres and protect against hypothermia.

They even inflate into a single-seat life raft once on the surface.

The orange whole-body suits were part of the original equipment aboard the Victoria-class submarines, diesel-electric boats originally built for the Royal Navy and purchased from Britain in the late 1990s.

Documents obtained by CBC News show there was concern among naval engineers, in late 2016, that many of the suits had passed or were about to pass their best-before, safety dates.

A spokeswoman for the Defence Department said a decision was made to extend the life of suits while the federal government procures new ones — a process that is ongoing.

There is no threat to safety, said Jessica Lamirande.

"The service life extension was approved based on successful, rigorous testing at the Naval Engineering Test Establishment on a representative sample of suits that had passed their intended service lives," said Lamirande, in a recent email.

"Testing consisted of detailed visual inspection, leakage tests, and functional testing."

Fleet sailing until 2040

But defence experts say it is a small project that speaks volumes about the Liberal government's plan to modernize and keep operating the four submarines until 2040, a proposal that was articulated in the latest defence policy.

Retired commander Peter Haydon, who also taught defence policy at Dalhousie University in Halifax for years, said keeping submarine replacement parts and equipment in the system has been an ongoing headache for the navy, dating back to the 1980s.

However, the bigger concern is: As the boats age, the strength of their pressure hulls declines.

The  government plans to modernize the boats, but Haydon said that's fine for the electronic and other components.

"You can modernize most things, but you can't modernize the hull, unless you build a new hull," he said.

Pressure to buy new

The Senate and House of Commons defence committees have recommended the government begin exploring options now for the replacement of the submarines, which took years to formally bring into service after they were purchased.

The government, in its response to a committee report last fall, argued it is already fully engaged building Arctic patrol ships and replacements for frigates and supply ships.

Buying new submarines is a topic that has been debated behind the scenes for a long time at National Defence with one former top commander, retired general Walt Natynczyk ordering — in 2012 — a study that looked at the possible replacements.

University of British Columbia defence expert Michael Byers has been quoted as saying he's worried Canada "will lose its submarine capability through negligence rather than design," noting that it is politically more palatable to refurbish the underwater fleet rather than endure a painful procurement process.

"They're running a risk with the lives of sailors, the older these vessels get in an extremely dangerous environment, especially when they're submerged," said Byers, who pointed to the loss of the Argentine submarine San Juan and its crew of 44 in 2017.

"I would be more comfortable with a decision to buy a new fleet submarines than the current path that we're on. I have been skeptical as to whether we need submarines, but better a new fleet than send our sailors to sea in these old vessels."

Since Canada does not have the technology, nor has it ever constructed its own submarines, the federal government would be required to go overseas to countries such as Germany or Sweden to get them built.

Restricted diving

In the meantime, Haydon said he's confident ongoing maintenance and the stringent safety standards among Western allies will keep the Victoria-class submarines in the water and operating safely.

He cautions, however, like Canada's previous submarines retired in the 1990s, the Oberon class, the older the current fleet gets, the more their diving depth will eventually have to be restricted.

As the hull and its valves weaken, the less pressure they can sustain.

Lamirande said the navy has enough escape submarine suits whenever it deploys, and she emphasized it never goes to sea with "expired" equipment.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/submarine-escape-suits-1.5036007
 
I will observe that the Sub Escape Suits are, I believe, a First Level System. 

The inspection and testing that they would have undergone to get recertified and shelf life extended by the Life Cycle technicians would have been very thorough, and any rubber seals found degraded when tested in the durometer would have been redirected into the disposal stream instead of renewing the shelf life on them.

NS
 
The good thing about the sub buy is that they won't be built here. We should buy into another build *cough Aussie, cough* and keep the changes minimal.
 
Fire breaks out aboard hunter-killer submarine drydocked at CFB Esquimalt

https://globalnews.ca/news/5120237/esquimalt-submarine-fire/

This is all bad and all, but what I'm really interested in is this part:

HMCS Corner Brook has been at the base for an extended docking work period since January 2015, with an expected completion date of 2020.

A 5 year extended work period? How long would it take to build a similar size submarine from scratch? Honestly, I wish I understood what the hell goes on at FMF (and at the same time, for my sanity's sake I'm glad that I don't).
 
Lumber said:
https://globalnews.ca/news/5120237/esquimalt-submarine-fire/

This is all bad and all, but what I'm really interested in is this part:

A 5 year extended work period? How long would it take to build a similar size submarine from scratch? Honestly, I wish I understood what the hell goes on at FMF (and at the same time, for my sanity's sake I'm glad that I don't).

Actually I read something online about 2021. Its much easier to repair or overhaul something than paying capital costs for new ones. Any maintenance for submarines is involved and expensive.
 
Don't forget there are some unique issues to this one related to hitting the ocean floor...
 
garb811 said:
Don't forget there are some unique issues to this one related to hitting the ocean floor...

Technically, it hit the ocean side. ;D
 
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