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Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF

PuckChaser said:
How many of these incidents involve alcohol? Is it time that RMC went dry? Or certain years are not allowed out?

Usually, when things go "Dry" another problem emerges.  When the restriction is let down or dropped temporarily, the members act like children in a candy store and go overboard in their consumption.  Treat them like children and they will act like children.  The trick is to mold them into "responsible adults", responsible for their own actions.
 
Hamish Seggie said:
I know where you might be going with this. I would not encourage any unit to go dry, nor would I decree that cadets be kept apart from civilians.
Education on relationships, alcohol awareness briefs, and since RMC Is supposed to be producing future leaders have senior cadets brief and supervise the junior ones.
Then hold them accountable for their actions. There is no excuse for harassment, sexual or otherwise.

Absolutely, but the Navy went completely dry (right or wrong), these cadets need to see that it could very easily happen to them. Not that I agree with it, but cutting the booze is the sort of knee-jerk reaction that could save face instead of dealing with the institutional issues.
 
ballz said:
Wow, apparently I hurt your feelings. I assure you I don't envy anyone, I actually don't care too much about RMC right now as I was busy discussing sexual assault. You don't see me running around trying to find out why someone else got extras or put on admin measures or might be charged for this or got jacked up for that or... getting all offended because someone said something I consider negative toward my alma mater.

I didn't go DEO nor did I ever spend more than 2 weeks on PAT Pl, unless you count block leave between Ph III and IV, but I did go to a civilian university. I matured a lot more in 4 years of living on my own without a babysitter at all times making sure I paid my rent and ate my vegetables, realizing that I no longer had to care about fellow classmates being judgemental because I no longer had to spend any time with them if I didn't want to, than I did in the 3 years of high school prior to that. Kind of off topic but the RMC candidates who created this shitstorm for heckling this Lalonde character reminded me of grade 11 or 12s that decided they were going to take the substitute teacher for a hard ride. Coincidence?

As I said, most of the RMC grads take a year or two to realize they no longer eat, sleep, and breathe under the same room as their peers and  quickly stop caring so much about what other people think. For most people though, that year or two happens in their first year or two out of high school, where as for most RMC grads, they spend an extra 4 years in that environment. Most RMC grads I know describe it as such. Is it really that hard to believe?

Anyway, all this tending to your scuffed knee is detracting from my original point and the question of how much this points to the leadership at RMC. This Second-Lieutenant most likely felt immense pressure both for societal reasons as I mentioned (victim-blaming and perpetrator emphasizing) and also because of the environment at RMC (as I have now discussed more than I originally wished to). Just my guess. So how much of that blame lays on RMC leadership? I am unsure. I believe if you treat people like kids they will act like kids, but that seems to be rampant within the Canadian Army at least.

I apologize that I lost my cool for a minute, what I have trouble with though is that I think RMC Cadets (Past, Present and Future) get a bad wrap.  There are a lot of RMC haters out there but it's not going to be the institution that takes the brunt of all this negative publicity, it's going to be the cadets, 90% of whom are good people who are just trying to serve their country.  It's especially disheartening to have your institution put down by people who are supposed to be your friends and also your brothers in arms.   

I applied to RMC because I wanted to be an officer, not because I wanted to go to RMC.  It was a means to an end for me as it was for most of my peers as well.  People who go to RMC should feel proud when they graduate from the school; however, most don't because when they get to a unit and someone finds out they are a ring knocker .... "oh you're one of those" ... yep that was said to me just this past Friday, by a civilian worker at my unit no less, someone who isn't even a member of the profession of arms. 

The feeling surrounding RMC has always been negative, especially within the military writ-large.  Thus, any chance people get to knock the institution, they do so willingly.  This only has the effect though of hurting our most valuable commodity, our people, most of whom are hardworking officers who slave away doing important but largely thankless jobs. In this regard, the negative aura that surrounds RMC is quite similar to the aura that surrounded the Airborne Regiment prior to it's disbandment.

It's the perception of elitism, something which is a direct contradiction to Canadian values, which allows this attitude to fester, regardless of whether the place, person or thing in question is truly elite or not.  RMC is certainly not elite and the cadets that go there are no better or worse than their DEO counterparts but there are some advantages to RMC which are for another topic but also ties in to your question about whether the leadership holds some of the blame.

If we talk about the leadership of RMC, it must first be stated that RMC is controlled by the military.  The Commandant is a 1* General and answers to a 2* General in charge of CDA.  CDA in turn answers to CMP who is a 3* and is soon to be Chris Whitecross, the GO placed in charge of the sexual misconduct TF (a coincidence? maybe).  There are some other players i.e. Alumni, Academia and the Senate but it's a military organization.  The current CDS is an RMC Graduate and was the Commandant of the school at one point so if we are blaming the leadership for this then is our entire CoC from the top on down at fault?

RMC has been allowed to exist in isolation for a very long time because you've got a substantial portion of the military who think it's a waste of time and money and want it to disappear for good (just like the Army wanted the Airborne to go away) but you've got a minority of officers that went there that is large enough that the institution must be maintained.  These two factions can never come to an agreement on what to do with the place so it's been allowed to exist in stasis mode with the raison-d'etre of the school remaining largely unchanged since the 1960's.





 
Not to derail the tangent, but I am sure we have an existing thread to discuss the merits, faults and solutions relating to the institution that is RMC and how we use it to train young officers.
 
ballz said:
I didn't go DEO nor did I ever spend more than 2 weeks on PAT Pl, unless you count block leave between Ph III and IV, but I did go to a civilian university. I matured a lot more in 4 years of living on my own without a babysitter at all times making sure I paid my rent and ate my vegetables, realizing that I no longer had to care about fellow classmates being judgemental because I no longer had to spend any time with them if I didn't want to, than I did in the 3 years of high school prior to that. Kind of off topic but the RMC candidates who created this shitstorm for heckling this Lalonde character reminded me of grade 11 or 12s that decided they were going to take the substitute teacher for a hard ride. Coincidence?

As I said, most of the RMC grads take a year or two to realize they no longer eat, sleep, and breathe under the same room as their peers and  quickly stop caring so much about what other people think. For most people though, that year or two happens in their first year or two out of high school, where as for most RMC grads, they spend an extra 4 years in that environment. Most RMC grads I know describe it as such. Is it really that hard to believe?

Anyway, all this tending to your scuffed knee is detracting from my original point and the question of how much this points to the leadership at RMC. This Second-Lieutenant most likely felt immense pressure both for societal reasons as I mentioned (victim-blaming and perpetrator emphasizing) and also because of the environment at RMC (as I have now discussed more than I originally wished to). Just my guess. So how much of that blame lays on RMC leadership? I am unsure. I believe if you treat people like kids they will act like kids, but that seems to be rampant within the Canadian Army at least.

The distinction between RMC and civilian university that you raise is valid in the discussion of sexual harrasment. Civilian university isn't some sort of panacea of enlightenment for which the others may follow. One only need to look at incidents such as the Dalhousie university dental students, the Saint Mary's University frosh students singing rape songs, and Queen's university, that bastion of liberal morality almost losing its frosh week altogether in the early 2000s due to signs along the highway talking about how the frosh leaders were excited to rip the panties off of peoples daughters to realize that the problem is far more widespread than just RMC.

I dont doubt for a second that there is a problem at RMC, but I would be curious to see how the rate of sexual harassment/rape there compares to a civilian university. Having attended civie U myself I would be surprised if the scales weren't tipped in RMCs balance.... RMC students are given military and leadership training and oversight from experienced officers which SHOULD minimize S.H. incidents (though clearly it wont stop anything completely) while students in civie U are basically tossed into dorms, given massive amounts of liquor and "wished the best of luck".... this is especially true for the 3rd and 4th year leaches who YEARLY take advantage of frosh girls....

Until someone actually comes up with some factors for the rate of rape/sexual harassment at RMC vs civie universities than personally I dont think that anyone should jump to any conclusions about the goings on in the school. If we do than we're just applying a kneejerk solution to a problem instead of identifying the root causes. If the root is leadership, than mass firings should be the COA of choice. If the rates are similar or less than civie U (which I would be surprised if they weren't) than it's a much more difficult problem.

And those who commit the acts should be held doubly accountable as they KNOW better and should be better at dealing with living with female/male peers due to the nature of the military. S.H. and rape at RMC should be treated with more severity than almost every other crime as it is a crime against the very values of the profession of arms that we all joined.
 
I think it's unfair to the 2Lt and to RMC to suggest that her reluctance to come forward had anything to do with the RMC culture.

I've been there myself (not because of anything at RMC) and it's a very hard decision to make.  Not at all cut and dried.  The easy answer is to go and report because the perpetrator might do this again to someone else.  But the victim invariably is also going to consider whether or not this is a one-off and, if so, how will this affect the perpetrator's future.  As well, she's going to consider how going forward will affect her not just with her peers (and this goes for whoever you are, wherever you work or go to school) but when she has to speak about all of it again in a court setting in front of a bunch of strangers.

It's a daunting task and a lot of pressure to put on one person who has already been victimized.

So, her hesitation in reporting is not so much an RMC issue, but a societal issue as a whole.
 
Strike said:
I think it's unfair to the 2Lt and to RMC to suggest that her reluctance to come forward had anything to do with the RMC culture.

I've been there myself (not because of anything at RMC) and it's a very hard decision to make.  Not at all cut and dried.  The easy answer is to go and report because the perpetrator might do this again to someone else.  But the victim invariably is also going to consider whether or not this is a one-off and, if so, how will this affect the perpetrator's future.  As well, she's going to consider how going forward will affect her not just with her peers (and this goes for whoever you are, wherever you work or go to school) but when she has to speak about all of it again in a court setting in front of a bunch of strangers.

It's a daunting task and a lot of pressure to put on one person who has already been victimized.

So, her hesitation in reporting is not so much an RMC issue, but a societal issue as a whole.

Once upon a time leaders met one on one with their troops in confidence for a check in. Usually once every month or so.

These 'meetings' were held ion a variety of locations but were usually most effective when in the field, in informal settings like trenches, vehicles, swamps etc.

Sometimes these leaders discovered things that were going on, that needed to be addressed, during these interviews. Especially if junior soldiers were reluctant to come forward. These leaders then took action on behalf of the soldier.

Once upon a time....
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
The distinction between RMC and civilian university that you raise is valid in the discussion of sexual harrasment. Civilian university isn't some sort of panacea of enlightenment for which the others may follow. One only need to look at incidents such as the Dalhousie university dental students, the Saint Mary's University frosh students singing rape songs, and Queen's university, that bastion of liberal morality almost losing its frosh week altogether in the early 2000s due to signs along the highway talking about how the frosh leaders were excited to rip the panties off of peoples daughters to realize that the problem is far more widespread than just RMC.

I dont doubt for a second that there is a problem at RMC, but I would be curious to see how the rate of sexual harassment/rape there compares to a civilian university. Having attended civie U myself I would be surprised if the scales weren't tipped in RMCs balance.... RMC students are given military and leadership training and oversight from experienced officers which SHOULD minimize S.H. incidents (though clearly it wont stop anything completely) while students in civie U are basically tossed into dorms, given massive amounts of liquor and "wished the best of luck".... this is especially true for the 3rd and 4th year leaches who YEARLY take advantage of frosh girls....

Until someone actually comes up with some factors for the rate of rape/sexual harassment at RMC vs civie universities than personally I dont think that anyone should jump to any conclusions about the goings on in the school. If we do than we're just applying a kneejerk solution to a problem instead of identifying the root causes. If the root is leadership, than mass firings should be the COA of choice. If the rates are similar or less than civie U (which I would be surprised if they weren't) than it's a much more difficult problem.

And those who commit the acts should be held doubly accountable as they KNOW better and should be better at dealing with living with female/male peers due to the nature of the military. S.H. and rape at RMC should be treated with more severity than almost every other crime as it is a crime against the very values of the profession of arms that we all joined.

:goodpost:

Just want to point out that I wasn't talking about the number of incidents.

RoyalDrew said:
so if we are blaming the leadership for this then is our entire CoC from the top on down at fault?

I have certainly never believed that our higher ranks are infallible.

Strike said:
So, her hesitation in reporting is not so much an RMC issue, but a societal issue as a whole.

I'm not reading that she hesitated to report it. I'm reading that she reported it, and then felt so ostracised that she tried to withdraw the complaint. That is pretty crazy. How many times does that happen? In any case...

Strike said:
I think it's unfair to the 2Lt and to RMC to suggest that her reluctance to come forward had anything to do with the RMC culture.

Yes, it probably is unfair. I was just hazarding a WAG as to why she felt so ostracised that she actually tried to withdraw her complaint.
 
E-mail recieved that basically orders all COs to conduct a CO's Hour to brief the masses on the CCA Initial Guidance on the report.
 
There is a CANARMYGEN that was just released saying the same thing.
 
This picture is making the rounds of the RMC campus from Ms. Lalondes Twitter page. Initially I had stated, "Food for thought", but what was meant was for an indication of the RMC frame of mind on the matter.







*Edited for context
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
This picture is making the rounds of the RMC campus from Ms. Lalondes Twitter page. Initially I had stated, "Food for thought", but what was meant was for an indication of the RMC frame of mind on the matter.







*Edited for context

Seems she's removed most of her pics from Twitter now.  I also found this one: https://metronewsca.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/aa_27_ott_abortionlalond_sean-e1348697009540.jpg.  It was taken at a pro-choice rally on the Hill.

No wonder people were up in arms about her.  According to miss Lalonde, it's okay to mock men and religion when trying to get your point across.

As much as many people think they are, RMC cadets are not stupid.  You can bet that once they knew who was coming a few of them took to Google to find out what they could about her.  Perhaps some of their preconceived attitudes had something to do with what they found online.

(Still not saying that any cadets who may have acted disrespectfully were in the right.  There are better ways to get your point across.)
 
I had heard about this picture earlier. If she puts it on Facebook, she must be willing to see it circulated more widely, or at the very least acknowledge the high risk of same. I would be interested to see if any media outlets are willing to publish it.

But, so what? What does this change?

Does this rather thoughtless self-promotion mean that nothing Ms Lalonde said is at all true? Is the message wrong because we don't like the messenger?

Does it mean there is no problem in the CAF with narrow-minded, immature people with an overwhelming sense of self-entitlement acting out when they feel like it?

Does it mean that there aren't any questions about where the adult leadership in RMC was when this mess happened?

Probably not. In the big picture, this entire embarrassing shambles at RMC, and the Strat/Pol firestorm surrounding the earlier inquiry report, are just distractions from a much bigger question: does the military treat people right, or not?

If not, why not? And whose ass is going to get kicked over it?

Because to a grubby old retired guy like me, it is exactly just that simple. If you want to change behaviour in a group, you have to work very hard, all the time, until it's changed. Then you keep working hard to make sure it stays that way. You can't just sit in the office and issue e-mails and memos and vapid videos or wall posters, or send out silly (if well-meaning) briefing teams to bother people.

It isn't easy to force change, and you will not be well-liked. You are going to hear people (at all rank levels...) say: "Hey. c'mon-he's a really good soldier. Can't we just overlook this?". At the other end, you will also have to deal with the oxygen-stealing disgruntled whiner who sees yet another chance to use the system against their bosses. Good luck sorting that out. (Been there, on both of the above).

Either the CAF will be a place where all who make the grade can serve honourably and in good spirit, regardless of who else they happen to be, or it won't be. Take your pick.
 
pbi said:
I had heard about this picture earlier. If she puts it on Facebook, she must be willing to see it circulated more widely, or at the very least acknowledge the high risk of same. I would be interested to see if any media outlets are willing to publish it.

But, so what? What does this change?

Does this rather thoughtless self-promotion mean that nothing Ms Lalonde said is at all true? Is the message wrong because we don't like the messenger?

Don't some of those "thoughtless self-promoting" photos on her sites not portray her as a hypocrite?

In response to the rest of your post, do you think that the problem is often that the CAF, on many fronts, has been lacking in having a honest reply, if even a reply of any sort, to accusations in the media?  The CAF often remains silent and in the hopes that any negative media coverage will 'just go away' on its own, without any response to clarify or defend a position that the CAF may hold. 
 
George Wallace said:
Don't some of those "thoughtless self-promoting" photos on her sites not portray her as a hypocrite?

I wouldn't say a hypocrite but the optics and credibility definitely take a hit.
 
George Wallace said:
Don't some of those "thoughtless self-promoting" photos on her sites not portray her as a hypocrite?

In response to the rest of your post, do you think that the problem is often that the CAF, on many fronts, has been lacking in having a honest reply, if even a reply of any sort, to accusations in the media?  The CAF often remains silent and in the hopes that any negative media coverage will 'just go away' on its own, without any response to clarify or defend a position that the CAF may hold.

The CAF does a pi$$ poor job of defending itself. I know it has to be difficult as some of those tin foil hatters will always say "you're hiding something". I think sometimes a good solid response to negative press would sure help.
 
George Wallace said:
Don't some of those "thoughtless self-promoting" photos on her sites not portray her as a hypocrite?

In response to the rest of your post, do you think that the problem is often that the CAF, on many fronts, has been lacking in having a honest reply, if even a reply of any sort, to accusations in the media?  The CAF often remains silent and in the hopes that any negative media coverage will 'just go away' on its own, without any response to clarify or defend a position that the CAF may hold.

Hugely, but it has been so for a long time. I remember being angry about this when I was in uniform. It got better under the last Liberal Govt (around the early days of Afgh), to the point where I do believe that the CAF had the most open and progressive PA policy of all agencies of the Federal Govt. It survived briefly under the Tories, but has long since IMHO gotten much. much worse.

But even in the "good days", I'm not sure we fought back as we should have.

I guess we are caught between being a profession (think of how aggressively many professional associations defend themselves against public injury) and being an arm of the Government, and therefore subject to whatever its StratComm policy might be. (I'm not talking about OPSEC-that is a clear no-brainer)

Concerning the lecturer/dominatrix in question, let me ask this:if an arsonist tells you that your house is on fire, do you just ignore him, or at least have a look?
 
pbi said:
Hugely, but it has been so for a long time. I remember being angry about this when I was in uniform. It got better under the last Liberal Govt (around the early days of Afgh), to the point where I do believe that the CAF had the most open and progressive PA policy of all agencies of the Federal Govt. It survived briefly under the Tories, but has long since IMHO gotten much. much worse.

But even in the "good days", I'm not sure we fought back as we should have.

I guess we are caught between being a profession (think of how aggressively many professional associations defend themselves against public injury) and being an arm of the Government, and therefore subject to whatever its StratComm policy might be. (I'm not talking about OPSEC-that is a clear no-brainer)

Concerning the lecturer/dominatrix in question, let me ask this:if an arsonist tells you that your house is on fire, do you just ignore him, or at least have a look?

I think the details of her facebook/twitter page and the event do matter if we, the military, are going to take a realistic evaluation of the events that happened at RMC. We have heard, through the media and Ms Lalonde (who is not shy whatsoever in sharing her opinion(s)) what her side of the story is, but the RMC cadets side of the story hasn't been heard aside from people taking an, "off with their heads!" type of approach.

What we want NEED is an internal and external investigation to see what the events were. Many in the RMC circle are claiming that Ms Lalonde was quite provocative in her portrayal of the young men there which caused the reaction she received. Maybe this is the case, maybe it isn't. But by examining her character as part of a larger investigation we could actually come to a real conclusion, pinpoint actual, not perceived problems, and come up with targetted, reasoned responses to attack core problems. What I fear we're going to see is one side taken verbatem and excessive action taken.

As for the arsonist comment, dont we do this with politicians all the time? For example, does the NDP MLA in Alberta taking a pic giving the Canadian flag the bird reflect on her ability to represent her constituents any more than a harrassment advisor publishing pictures and opinions that are anti-men, anti-religion? And once the person loses credibility do we just ignore the parts that indicate hypocrisy or poor judgement and focus solely on the other parts of her character? If the arsonist told me my house was on fire I wouldn't ignore it, but I sure as f**k would be real skeptical about how the fire started in the first place.

 
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