Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF

[opcougar]

While I agree to a point, I am however bemused by the omission of young females from post. I mean have you just chosen to ignore all the social media bullying that goes on among *some* young females, all the drinking culture and posting online, provocative behaviour in their quest for "likes" by virtually strangers, entitlement behaviour, foul language / swearing???????

Let me be clear...I for one am NOT condoning any behaviour of harassment be it sexual, gender, race, etc. ZERO TOLERANCE!!!

Another thing that needs to be taken into consideration is the culture / upbringing of individuals. Anyone see the video of the Baltimore mother beating her son on life TV? Tell me the last time you saw anything like that by someone else of a different race. My point is, you can't pigeon-hole all young men, as they are all made from different fabrics, and same goes for females.

People in the CF, do mirror the public as a whole, which includes average bloggins / public and private sector folks, the police, firefighters, etc.

If I choose 1000 Canadians of military age at random from the general population, and 1000 from the CF, I am unlikely to find that the latter is much of a mirror of the former.  Members of the CF are firstly self-selected, and then occupationally selected.

Young men are more likely to be brash, rude, violent, anger prone, given to general jackass behaviour, offensive, etc, etc.

Any more politically correct, but biologically and socialogically incorrect, talking points?

 

[Brad Sallows]

I was in a Res F medical unit for 20 years as a NCM, NCO, and officer.  Res F units have a high turnover of young people, and as a cas aide I got to hang out around other units frequently.  By no means did I ever find the people I worked with in the Res F to be a representative cross-section of people I knew in grade school, people I knew at university, or people I worked with or knew after university.  Our experiences differ.

It is uncontroversial that Canadians, for reasons as varied as economics and culture, are not uniformly attracted to military service.  Government initiatives undertaken specifically to attract people more broadly strongly suggest the forces do not reflect the national makeup of people.  This is stronger evidence than our respective recollections and impressions.

Are we arguing different definitions of "reflects"?  My point is that the forces are not proportionately representative and have very low to nil representation from some slices of society, due to self-selection and then employment selection.  If "reflects" is interpreted as "has at least one of", then I understand your claim.

At no point as a young man did I ever see women behaving like the men on the same scale and scope (occasionally yes; routinely no).  I concede that an 18-25 year old woman today might be as prone to jackass behaviour as an 18-25 year old man; to that I simply can not speak.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I was in a Res F medical unit for 20 years as a NCM, NCO, and officer.  Res F units have a high turnover of young people, and as a cas aide I got to hang out around other units frequently.  By no means did I ever find the people I worked with in the Res F to be a representative cross-section of people I knew in grade school, people I knew at university, or people I worked with or knew after university.  Our experiences differ.

It is uncontroversial that Canadians, for reasons as varied as economics and culture, are not uniformly attracted to military service.  Government initiatives undertaken specifically to attract people more broadly strongly suggest the forces do not reflect the national makeup of people.  This is stronger evidence than our respective recollections and impressions.

So, pretty much like any job in the forest sector, mining/ oil sector, auto industry/ heavy manufacturing sector, financial/capital management markets, emergency (police/fire/ambulance) services, correctional services, guide/outfitting etc etc etc then?

And in other news, here's a great letter on the subject:

Cpl. Ashley Turner: Don’t associate me with that Sexualized Culture in the Military report

I was very surprised to see my photograph in the May 1 edition of Metro, and even more surprised to see the article that it was used to illustrate — an article entitled “Military Plagued by Sexualized Culture,” which described the recent report by former Supreme Court justice Marie Deschamps on the misogyny and sexual harassment that is allegedly commonplace in the Canadian Forces. While I am flattered that my picture was chosen to represent female soldiers in general, I also feel that the immediate impression a reader would get is that it was included to provide an example of a female soldier who has had firsthand experience of the issues discussed in the report. Therefore, I wish to clarify that this is not the case, and that I am not in any way associated with the study in question.

In fact, had I been one of the 700 personnel who were selected to participate in this study, I would have confessed that the time I have spent in the Canadian military — all 12 years of it — has been a very positive experience, and almost entirely free of the issues described in the article. Perhaps I have been unusually lucky to have worked with excellent male colleagues for the entirety of my career, or perhaps I am one of the “desensitized” women the article mentions. I do admit that crude jokes and swear words are spoken regularly in the military, yet I have never felt offended by them. In my experience, jokes that degrade women are not made any more often than jokes that degrade other groups of people — and, in fact, though the article mentions “references to female genitalia” as a particularly offensive example of such a joke, I can assure you that references to male genitalia are far, far more common. What I find much more offensive and misogynistic than any joke I have heard in the military is the notion that females, but not males, are somehow ill-equipped to handle this manner of conversing. The joking I have experienced has almost always been good-natured, and when the time has come to get the job done I have never found myself to be treated any less fairly than anyone else, or to be any less accepted by my peers as a result of my gender.

Of course, for both males and females, personal experience in the Canadian Forces will vary, and I am sure that, at times, legitimate harassment does occur. My intent is not to belittle the victims of this harassment, or to suggest that it should not be taken seriously. I simply wish to state that my experience in the Canadian Forces has been very different than the experiences of the female soldiers described in the article, and that the use of my photograph was therefore probably not the most accurate way to illustrate the concept discussed.

http://metronews.ca/voices/1369279/cpl-ashley-turner-dont-associate-me-with-that-sexualized-culture-in-the-military-report/

 

[opcougar]

Indeed to the words in bold. There was no social media back in my day, and the attitude today amongst most young people regardless of gender, is that they try to live their lives based on reality shows, and are quick to post on social media whilst looking for that 15mins of fame.

I was in a Res F medical unit for 20 years as a NCM, NCO, and officer.  Res F units have a high turnover of young people, and as a cas aide I got to hang out around other units frequently.  By no means did I ever find the people I worked with in the Res F to be a representative cross-section of people I knew in grade school, people I knew at university, or people I worked with or knew after university.  Our experiences differ.

It is uncontroversial that Canadians, for reasons as varied as economics and culture, are not uniformly attracted to military service.  Government initiatives undertaken specifically to attract people more broadly strongly suggest the forces do not reflect the national makeup of people.  This is stronger evidence than our respective recollections and impressions.

Are we arguing different definitions of "reflects"?  My point is that the forces are not proportionately representative and have very low to nil representation from some slices of society, due to self-selection and then employment selection.  If "reflects" is interpreted as "has at least one of", then I understand your claim.

At no point as a young man did I ever see women behaving like the men on the same scale and scope (occasionally yes; routinely no).  I concede that an 18-25 year old woman today might be as prone to jackass behaviour as an 18-25 year old man; to that I simply can not speak.

 

[cupper]

So to ensure that any derogatory term used to describe someone, we now should use the more gender neutral body parts. Form this point on everyone is now an A-hole.

Problem solved. ;D

 

[George Wallace]

So, pretty much like any job in the forest sector, mining/ oil sector, auto industry/ heavy manufacturing sector, financial/capital management markets, emergency (police/fire/ambulance) services, correctional services, guide/outfitting etc etc etc then?

And in other news, here's a great letter on the subject:

Cpl. Ashley Turner: Don’t associate me with that Sexualized Culture in the Military report


http://metronews.ca/voices/1369279/cpl-ashley-turner-dont-associate-me-with-that-sexualized-culture-in-the-military-report/

Good post.  Good on Cpl Turner for her well articulated response to the use of her photo.

Another interesting fact, although minor in some's opinions, to introduce into the conversation may be the small fact of the 'English' culture to use "sexual" innuendo when cursing, as opposed, for example, to other cultures that use "religious" innuendo when cursing. 

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Good post.  Good on Cpl Turner for her well articulated response to the use of her photo.

Another interesting fact, although minor in some's opinions, to introduce into the conversation may be the small fact of the 'English' culture to use "sexual" innuendo when cursing, as opposed, for example, to other cultures that use "religious" innuendo when cursing.

I can't imagine who you are talking about  ;D

I remember when the Vandoos left for their first tour in AFGH. A friend of mine here in Montreal asked me what difference the locals would notice the most when they got there. I told him they would notice two things: One, an average height difference of four inches smaller and, Two, the Vandoos are much more "religious" than the Anglo troops they relieved .

On a more sober note, I concur that its good on Cpl Turner for setting the record straight, and nicely written too.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>So, pretty much like any job in the ...

If you mean, tends to attract men more than women, yes.

I spent a couple of summers on my grandfather's salmon troller.  The fishermen I met were another example of a group which did not reflect a broad cross-section of Canadians and they were also a different crew from those I met in the Res F.

But personal impressions are irrelevant to the claim of "is representative".  No-one can truly know what is the "broad cross-section of Canadians", which is required to make the claim.  Conversely, it is a simple matter to consider some people and determine - by the application of mere common sense - that they are distinctive.

 

[mariomike]

But personal impressions are irrelevant to the claim of "is representative".  No-one can truly know what is the "broad cross-section of Canadians", which is required to make the claim. 

Many pages and many discussions here concerning the above as it applies to the CAF.

eg: "Is the CAF as diversified as canada is?"

 

[Brad Sallows]

I know; I and I know I'm beating it to death.  But "the CAF is/should be a reflection of Canada" is one of my least favourite platitudes, along with "diversity will make us better/stronger".  They are substitutes for a proper discussion of what could be done to improve/fix something, and hinder attempts to understand a problem.

 

[Tibbson]

I know; I and I know I'm beating it to death.  But "the CAF is/should be a reflection of Canada" is one of my least favourite platitudes, along with "diversity will make us better/stronger".  They are substitutes for a proper discussion of what could be done to improve/fix something, and hinder attempts to understand a problem.

I see the point with people who make that statement however I see a big flaw with it.  Canadian society is made up of people who are born into it or, in some cases, immigrate to it.  People live their lives within the confines of the law and their personal morals and values.  When those two collide there is a mechanism to deal with it.

The CAF is different however.  Nobody is born into it or immigrates into it.  People choose to join it and to do so they go through a selection and screening process.  They also are required to abide by a higher standard with respect to their conduct.  That selection process and the higher standards we are held to should be enough to discount the "we are a reflection of Canadian society" excuse.  If we are a reflection of Canadian society then I suggest we have failed as a military both through our selection process and our day to day conduct.  Leaders, followers and everyone in between.

 

[mariomike]

I know; I and I know I'm beating it to death. 

Not at all, Brad. I was simply agreeing with you based on what I have read on the subject in previous discussions. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

Working weekends? Poor things...

Activist, educator recalls hostile experience at RMC

When award-winning feminist activist and educator Julie Lalonde found out the Royal Military College of Canada was going to require the entire school to attend sexual harassment briefings, she was thrilled to participate. Little did she know she would need an escort to her car afterwards.

"There is always resistance to the work. I'm talking about sexual violence, which is not a comfortable topic for people," Lalonde told the Whig-Standard Thursday. "But there is a difference between skepticism or resistance and hostility.

"What I experienced at RMC was hostility that was palpable. You could walk into that room and feel the tension. I really feel like ... I was set up by the institution."

Lalonde, 30, has an extensive resume in sexual violence education, and most recently she developed and manages draw-the-line.ca, and founded Hollaback! an international movement against street harassment. In 2011, she received a Femmy Award for her work in the National Capital region, and received the Governor General's Award in Commemoration of the Persons Case in 2013.

On Oct. 4, 2014, Lalonde gave her "Draw the Line" presentation, a project she developed and manages as part of the province of Ontario's antisexual violence public education campaign. During and between her briefings, she was cat-called and the victim of rape jokes, amongst other comments. After filing a complaint, Brig.-Gen. Al Meinzinger, commandant of RMC, sent a formal apology to her employer at the beginning of February.

"I would like to reiterate my apology for the unprofessional behaviour of select Officer Cadets, and any challenges that resulted from the set up and organization of the presentation," Meinzinger wrote. "Rest assured that corrective steps were taken against the most difficult groups."

In the spring of 2014, Lalonde was first asked to give her "Draw the Line" presentation to the entire officer cadet population at RMC. The daughter, granddaughter and niece of former military members, was thrilled RMC was progressive enough to force the students to attend.

The presentation touches on the legal definition of consent, what it looks like in a real-life situation, statistics of sexual violence and assault in Canada, bystander intervention, and challenging the bystander effect. Lalonde said she was also asked to speak specifically to alcohol-facilitated sexual assault and online sexual violence.

This is a presentation Lalonde said she has given more than 100 times, from Grade 6 students to other members of the military at Canadian Forces Base Petawawa. Never had she been treated in such an aggressive way.

"Alcohol-facilitated sexual assault was by far the piece they were the most opposed to," Lalonde said. "I was told women who drink too much are enabling their own rape, and that I'm naive for thinking otherwise. Just a real array of disrespectful comments that were really dismissive, and when I was coming back from lunch, walking up to the podium I was cat-called.

"At one point, one of the cadets looked me up and down, and said he might have listened to me if I wasn't a woman and a civilian."

Held on a Saturday, Lalonde spoke to all years individually. She said the third-years were by far the most horrendous.

"Probably half the time I was there (it) was them very aggressively arguing that alcohol-facilitated sexual assault is not a problem, it's women making poor choices," Lalonde said. "They were unbelievable. Literally getting up, clapping, cheering when someone would insult me."

Lalonde said there was a small ray of sunshine during the third-year presentation, courtesy of an officer cadet who stood up for her during the onslaught.

"He went off on them," Lalonde said. "He said, to quote: 'The way in which we talk about women here at RMC is f---ing disgusting.' Then went off to say he was offended he had to sit there and listen to people complain, when we are talking about women as victims, because women are the victims of sexual violence.

"That was an incredible moment, because here I was being attacked and this one person willing to stand up and challenge them and defend me, basically."

During the fourth-year presentation, Lalonde said a cadet in a leadership role also told off fellow students who were complaining and being rude.

By the end of the day, Lalonde said she was exhausted and frightened by the hostile experience.

"I pretended to not know where the parking lot was so I could be escorted to my car," Lalonde said. "The third group was so incredibly hostile that I genuinely did not feel comfortable walking across that campus by myself."

Lalonde felt the organizers of the briefings set her up to fail. When she arrived, she was told by organizers that cadets weren't happy with her because they had been told only a few days earlier that they would have to work on a weekend.

"That was not fair to me or the cadets," Lalonde said. "You're setting up this antagonism because they think they are here at 8 a.m. on a Saturday because I made them be here, and that I took away their weekend privilege.

"The campus decided it would be on a Saturday; I didn't want to work on a Saturday, either."

Lalonde said there was no supervision or chain of command present for the afternoon briefings for the third- and fourth-year students.

What made things worse was when Lalonde complained to the university. Questioning her, they asked her to provide a detailed timeline of events and proper evidence of the allegations she had made. She said she was also asked for names of any victims of assault or violence who had approached her, which she did not reveal due to confidentiality.

"It was clear they had set me up in this way of 'prove it,'" Lalonde said. "I've given that exact presentation to members of Parliament and if I had had a bad experience and I complained, I can't imagine I would have been put on trial, essentially."

RMC could not be reached for comment. The Department of National Defence provided the Whig-Standard with a comment stating the goal of the briefings was to provide cadets with awareness of sexual assault and violence.

"With the sensitivity of this topic, an open environment of frank discussion was believed to be the best way to help meet the intent of these briefings," said the statement. "Ms. Lalonde's presentation helped us meet the objective of broadening student understanding of bystander intervention."

Lalonde said the whole situation was an institutional failure.

"There was no real leadership," Lalonde said. "Just smoke and mirrors, and checking off a box."

http://www.thewhig.com/2015/05/21/activist-educator-recalls-hostile-experience-at-rmc

 

[RedcapCrusader]

Working weekends? Poor things...

Activist, educator recalls hostile experience at RMC

*snip*

http://www.thewhig.com/2015/05/21/activist-educator-recalls-hostile-experience-at-rmc

Wow.

Talk about one embarrassment after another.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Wow.

Talk about one embarrassment after another.

Well, that was my first thought then of course there's the possibility she's exaggerating for one reason or another.

But hey, I know that stuff never happens in newspapers ...  :

 

[RedcapCrusader]

Well, that was my first thought then of course there's the possibility she's exaggerating for one reason or another.

But hey, I know that stuff never happens in newspapers ...  :

Ah, aha! Good point.  :nod:

 

[The Bread Guy]

Well, that was my first thought then of course there's the possibility she's exaggerating for one reason or another.

But hey, I know that stuff never happens in newspapers ...  :

I agree 100%, but what if it has the kernel of truth?  After all, this could never happen ....

.... "Alcohol-facilitated sexual assault was by far the piece they were the most opposed to," Lalonde said. "I was told women who drink too much are enabling their own rape, and that I'm naive for thinking otherwise. Just a real array of disrespectful comments that were really dismissive, and when I was coming back from lunch, walking up to the podium I was cat-called.

"At one point, one of the cadets looked me up and down, and said he might have listened to me if I wasn't a woman and a civilian." ....

Remember, like any other rule, it only takes a few (sometimes, very few) idiots to get the rest of the group painted, right?

 

[c_canuk]

I hope there is video of the event in question, so that the culprit(s), whoever they are, are quickly held accountable.

 

[Strike]

I'm surprised that there was no senior leadership present during the seminar, but I also wonder if that was a request of the speaker.  Not unlikely given the topic of conversation and the belief that the Sr staff may have made the cadets less likely to speak up on topics.

As for the cadets being annoyed about losing a Saturday, they would have known about this trg weekend well ahead of time.  The speaker's comment about that issue seems like she's trying to put blame on the school as opposed to the cadets themselves.

Either way, the cadets as a whole should be ashamed of the attitudes that some of them showed.

 

[jollyjacktar]

If the cadets of today are similar to those I had on my phase training at Gagetown back in 82, I'm not surprised.  They were (in my opinion), to a man with the one exception of a kid from CMR, the most disagreeable, arrogant SOB's I have ever had the displeasure to be stuck with.