Second Language Training ( SLT )

[armyvern]

Woo Hoo, I really tricked them this time!!!!

You'll note that I specifically stated "for sup/ammo techs" in my post. We have metric shitloads of LogOs who NEED the qual just to do their day jobs, we have Snr NCOs who show promise and demonstrated ability to advance who need it as well (to advance and to do their day jobs) ... and so the troops' chances just went down significantly as it is not a "must have" for 99.99% of them in their day jobs.

 

[dogger1936]

Everyone I work for in my English language regiment looks at it the same way.....now we can be sure someone who may be stupid in two official languages gets the position. Don't get me wrong I speak french well, but I do not see the use of the french language in a military context in a English regiment.

I frequently speak french while in New Brunswick on civi street. I have yet come across an occasion where a war wasn't being waged in English. I've never had to call in helo's in french for a medivac.

Sure it may have a military use in Africa or Haiti but we have managed to get by in a zillion other countries with only a basic knowledge of the local language.

To me this is just another hoop excellent combat soldiers have to jump through......as if we don't have enough courses now.

 

[aesop081]

but I do not see the use of the french language in a military context in a English regiment.

That is because you are limiting your outlook to a single predicament. I work in an English language unit at the moment but i am posted next summer to a bilingual unit where i will have subordinates who speak either language. Reality is that troops, as they progress to higher ranks, are likely to find themselves employed outside that "English regiment" and into the broader CF.

 

[captloadie]

A second language, or third, fourth, fifth language etc. , must be used to be retained. How many of us have had SLT and a year later could still receive the same marks on the evaluation? The problem with the way the current SLT is done is that the majority of people take it for one reason only: to improve their PER score and merit listing. It is a tick in the box. Therefore, those individuals who have the time to get it, get advanced over the people who are too busy, and quite possibly more deserving. 

However, there is a need to have senior leadership at both the Officer and NCM level to be bilingual. And I agree that some individuals need to be immersed in the language to pick it up, and then need to practice it constantly to keep it. Others will have a natural ability and be able to take a course and then recall it when required. Maybe we need to score the second language marks differently on PERs. After initial SLT,  the longer a member keeps a functional level in their second language without additional training gets a higher score on the merit board. This would at least show an attempt to keep up second language skills, even if it is self study.


I also wonder why if all province's,  with maybe the exception of Quebec, have mandatory second language training in their school systems, so many soldiers don't have enough French to understand the Vandoo Cpl giving them orders? Have we just identified a huge waste of taxpayers money? :

 

[armyvern]

A second language, or third, fourth, fifth language etc. , must be used to be retained. How many of us have had SLT and a year later could still receive the same marks on the evaluation? The problem with the way the current SLT is done is that the majority of people take it for one reason only: to improve their PER score and merit listing. It is a tick in the box. Therefore, those individuals who have the time to get it, get advanced over the people who are too busy, and quite possibly more deserving. 

However, there is a need to have senior leadership at both the Officer and NCM level to be bilingual. And I agree that some individuals need to be immersed in the language to pick it up, and then need to practice it constantly to keep it. Others will have a natural ability and be able to take a course and then recall it when required. Maybe we need to score the second language marks differently on PERs. After initial SLT,  the longer a member keeps a functional level in their second language without additional training gets a higher score on the merit board. This would at least show an attempt to keep up second language skills, even if it is self study.


I also wonder why if all province's,  with maybe the exception of Quebec, have mandatory second language training in their school systems, so many soldiers don't have enough French to understand the Vandoo Cpl giving them orders? Have we just identified a huge waste of taxpayers money? :

One just needs to have initiative to keep it up - this is Canada after all. I just finished the SLT in June. I watch an hour of franco TV each night and I often flick the radio onto a franco news channel just to keep myself going.

Even though 99% of the pers in the Regt are english, I make it a point to go out and about and speak to them all ... in english or french as the case may be. I could chose to sit in my office on my butt & communicate soley via their CoC down, but I don't.

It's a personal thing; it can be done.

I grew up in NB where taking french is mandatory for your entire schooling each and every year in order to graduate. It is the only province in Canada that it so. That meant absolutely zero though on the SLT. The SLT is formal french --- of the quebecquois persuasion, not Acadian; there are huge differences. My spouse, who is franco mother-tongue was confused by my "fake french" in being that it was obviously "formal french, formally taught, and used only within the public service ~ nary to be understood in the real world" by actual french speakers witout laughter. Go figure.

 

[captloadie]

You are correct about it being a personal thing, and I think it shows something of the individual, hence why I think members who actual practice the language deserve more credit, than those who simply take the training, get the testing out of the way, and wait five years to redo it.

I grew up in Northern NB, in an English community, but also had to take French all through school. The only time I ever used it though was in the year before I graduated, when I worked in a hardware store. I was forced to use my French, and I grudgingly spoke it when I had to. I still struggle speaking French to Quebecers, but oddly enough, have no difficulties dealing with the Belgians and Francophones from France here at my current posting.

 

[armyvern]

I still struggle speaking French to Quebecers, but oddly enough, have no difficulties dealing with the Belgians and Francophones from France here at my current posting.

Oui, c'est la même situation pour moi; c'est drôle eh?

 

[dogger1936]

That is because you are limiting your outlook to a single predicament. I work in an English language unit at the moment but i am posted next summer to a bilingual unit where i will have subordinates who speak either language. Reality is that troops, as they progress to higher ranks, are likely to find themselves employed outside that "English regiment" and into the broader CF.

I agree to an extent. I have been posted o a bilingual position....infact  I was posted directly into a franco section due to clerical errors involving my last name! That being said I do not agree with the language profile meaning so much at the Sgt WO SSM level. Frankly it is going to get the lesser tatical soldier, physical soldier, and educated soldier left behind in many cases due to the ability to speak a language that will only help him at the very higher ranks in the NCM world.

 

[armyvern]

I agree to an extent. I have been posted o a bilingual position....infact  I was posted directly into a franco section due to clerical errors involving my last name! That being said I do not agree with the language profile meaning so much at the Sgt WO SSM level. Frankly it is going to get the lesser tatical soldier, physical soldier, and educated soldier left behind in many cases due to the ability to speak a language that will only help him at the very higher ranks in the NCM world.

I have Franco Ptes and Cpls working alongside Anglo Ptes and Cpls each and every day; I think it`s nice and a good thing that they all put effort into trying to communicate effectively with one another in order to succeed in what we have to do. That`s a necessity, not a nicety.

As they progress in rank, this becomes even more critical as they will find themselves employed in positions such as Ops Sgts, or Ops WOs (outside of trade) or SSMs --- where the ability to communicate at a minimum level in the mother tongue of your subordinate is only fair. If not, what do you suggest, that the onus be on the franco troop who may be employed under that person be the one required to speak english instead?? I think it`s a much better place when both sides put in the effort.

 

[dogger1936]

If not, what do you suggest, that the onus be on the franco troop who may be employed under that person be the one required to speak english instead?? I think it`s a much better place when both sides put in the effort.

Posted to a anglo base? yes they should be able to communicate in english. I have two possiable postings until I reach SSM one in a english regiment the other in a "bilingual" unit which has french sections and english sections.
If I was posted to valcartier I would speak french.

I'm not sayig speaking other languages isnt important or useful.I just think that canforgen and the crrent way we are going with the language profile is just going to get morons promoted cause they grew up in a bilingual environment...nevermind their soldier skills.

 

[JB 11 11]

One just needs to have initiative to keep it up - this is Canada after all. I just finished the SLT in June. I watch an hour of franco TV each night and I often flick the radio onto a franco news channel just to keep myself going.

I too grew up in a Bilingual environment...and admittedly, languages are easy for me (on my 5th) however, after hanging around DFAIT and other Fed. Dept. types for the better part of 10 years, I've seen first hand what it is like for someone from, lets say, Grand Prairie AB or Swift Current Sask. to learn and retain their french without being in an environment where they "need" to use it.

On a posting in Delhi for two years, there aren't too many opportunities to speak French. If you have French speaking colleagues, great! If not....2 years is a long time to go without using a language if it is not your 1st. So the whole idea of taking "initiative" is a lot harder form some. For me and you, sure.... get some French TV on or listen to the Radio works fine, but for others who've worked damn hard and only just got their levels, it takes more.

My wife's a great example. She's from Sask. (hence the Swift Current Ref. ;D) and can smoke me at french grammar most of the time (she's a studious gal!). But being in Italy, she has lost most of it and you DO NOT want to hear her accent right now . She needs to get back into speaking it. Luckily for her, all her staff are trilingual and will speak french with her. If this wasn't the case, (and if she did not have me  8) ) than I'm not too sure she'd make her levels the next time around with out a mammoth effort. My Newfy side of the family is also very similar in regards to French... most of them can speak pig-latin, but not French.... ??? Go figure.

 

[armyvern]

Posted to a anglo base? yes they should be able to communicate in english. I have two possiable postings until I reach SSM one in a english regiment the other in a "bilingual" unit which has french sections and english sections.
If I was posted to valcartier I would speak french.

I'm not sayig speaking other languages isnt important or useful.I just think that canforgen and the crrent way we are going with the language profile is just going to get morons promoted cause they grew up in a bilingual environment...nevermind their soldier skills.

Posted to any base.

They should both make the effort. But here`s the kicker - it`s funny you expect the subordinate to speak english but not the other way around. I think you forget that there is a whole lot of trades out there where pers are in bilingual enviornments as a matter of NORMAL not necessarily officially bilingual units though.

Imagine that: Some young franco Sup tech gets posted to an anglo Unit and is squeamish enough about that and the word he gets from his chain and peers is `too bad, speak english`. Nice. It should be necessary for both the franco troop AND the supervisor to attempt to communicate irregardless of whether it`s an anglo base or not.

We`ll have to agree to disagree on your insinuation that this will get `morons`promoted. Bullshit. It`ll get anyone promoted who puts in the effort to comply and understands that effective communication and understanding of tasks/orders with ANY of their subordinates is critical to success. Those `morons`who wish to sit on their butt instead of take the message seriously ... will lose out through their own neglect.

I can take a superstar tradeguy to the merit boards, but I can not make him try to learn french/english. He chooses not to do that or make the attempt ... then who`s the moron now?

 

[Greymatters]

I can take a superstar tradeguy to the merit boards, but I can not make him try to learn french/english. He chooses not to do that or make the attempt ... then who`s the moron now?

Like the old saying: "You can lead a horse to water  - but you cant make him drink"

 

[Journeyman]

I some regiments, the language profile isn't enough -- you have to play hockey too 

 

[dogger1936]

Posted to any base.

They should both make the effort. But here`s the kicker - it`s funny you expect the subordinate to speak english but not the other way around. I think you forget that there is a whole lot of trades out there where pers are in bilingual enviornments as a matter of NORMAL not necessarily officially bilingual units though.

Imagine that: Some young franco Sup tech gets posted to an anglo Unit and is squeamish enough about that and the word he gets from his chain and peers is `too bad, speak english`. Nice. It should be necessary for both the franco troop AND the supervisor to attempt to communicate irregardless of whether it`s an anglo base or not.

We`ll have to agree to disagree on your insinuation that this will get `morons`promoted. Bullshit. It`ll get anyone promoted who puts in the effort to comply and understands that effective communication and understanding of tasks/orders with ANY of their subordinates is critical to success. Those `morons`who wish to sit on their butt instead of take the message seriously ... will lose out through their own neglect.

I can take a superstar tradeguy to the merit boards, but I can not make him try to learn french/english. He chooses not to do that or make the attempt ... then who`s the moron now?

I have my profile and speak quite well. Not really a concern of mine. As for the expect them to speak english...yes they should. I always said the best way for a young english guy to learn french is to be dropped into Valcartier. I've had friends who were strait Anglo who were posted there after their battle school. Now they are more comfortable in the french language than their own. And no the crew down there didnt let english be his tounge of choice...he either adapted or failed.A great way to learn.

 

[observor 69]

When I was posted to Bagotville in the 70's you could take the on base French course for six weeks of mornings, I did and enjoyed learning another language.
"But" if you wanted the longer French course in St.Jean you had to agree to extending your posting to Bagotvile by a couple of years at least.,
While quite a reasonable request it was rather unattractive to an Anglo with family. Catch 22

 

[rnkelly]

I always said the best way for a young english guy to learn french is to be dropped into Valcartier.

I'm a young Anglo posted a few months ago to 430 ETAH, CFB Valcartier (first posting).  It is a designated FLU (French Language unit) meaning it has no responsibilty to offer any services in english, the flying and Radio calls are french for the local area.  Being from Vancouver it's a bit of a culture shock but it all comes down to willingness to learn and attitude.  I might as well be on an exchange posting because that's what it feels like.  If you don't make a conscious effort to talk, read and practice french you won't gain the benefits of such an opportunity and will fail to enjoy the experience.  I expect to be at a CCC level in a couple years, just in time to get posted out and not put it to use!  I think putting bi-lingual on the resume is something to be proud of.  That's one of the reasons I joined, the adventure and to better myself while serving.  The girls aren't bad here in Quebec either.

Our military having the ability to deploy french units, battle groups is huge (Africa, Haiti).  The french units are always more bilingual then the english units as well so can provide liason/translation for large operations where other militaries only speak one of the two languages.  Our Country is unique/special in this way and can contribute in operations in ways that others cannot because of it.

Second language training is not at my disposal due to operational requirements which makes it tough.  With courses, Op tempo, currencies and personal development there's simply no way I can devote time solely to SLT.  That's alright though I'm on my own SLT concurrently while doing all other tasks and living my every day life.  I annoy others by asking questions sometimes but screw them.

PS- Somethings in Quebec are frustrating too but you have to take the good with the bad (like anywhere).  French is F@#%en tough to learn.  But if I wanted to stay where I'm from I shouldn't have joined the military.

 

[PuckChaser]

I some regiments, the language profile isn't enough -- you have to play hockey too 

Man, I'd be set if I go get some SLT.  ;D

 

[captloadie]

Our military having the ability to deploy french units, battle groups is huge (Africa, Haiti).  The french units are always more bilingual then the English units as well so can provide liaison/translation for large operations where other militaries only speak one of the two languages.  Our Country is unique/special in this way and can contribute in operations in ways that others cannot because of it.

Sorry, can't agree with this at all. I'm working in a quasi NATO organisation now and come across alot of different nationalities. Most of them here at the unit speak a minimum of 2 languages, and most understand at least three or four. When I ask how they learned, the answer is always, they had to take it in school. Most must take English as a second language, and then they also have to learn at least one other (usually German or French, but it depends on the country). 

 

[JB 11 11]

Sorry, can't agree with this at all. I'm working in a quasi NATO organisation now and come across alot of different nationalities. Most of them here at the unit speak a minimum of 2 languages, and most understand at least three or four. When I ask how they learned, the answer is always, they had to take it in school. Most must take English as a second language, and then they also have to learn at least one other (usually German or French, but it depends on the country).

+1
Europe is a great example of this as a whole. Most, if not all of the Germans I have met in a professional capacity have at a minimum 3 languages. Here in Italy, especially in the north everyone speaks at least 3 languages: Italian, German and English/French/Russian (lots of Russians in the Dolomite/Alps!).
Personally, it makes me feel pretty lame as a country some times. But then I see them freeze half to death when its 10 degrees outside, and I smile inside ;D