Search for New Canadian Ranger Rifle (merged)

[Ostrozac]

Sad to think that we seem currently unable to produce locally the parts for a No.4. Considering the terms for the contract, buy the license and plans off of AIA (who likely need the cash anyways) and have Colt make them here.

Do we even need to buy them? Patents expire after 20 years -- government copyrights after 50 years. Are the designs for the Lee-Enfield already in the public domain, as far as Canada is concerned?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Really what you are buying is the redesign of the receiver and mag, which is based mostly on a M14 mag, but lacking certain critical features fr that role. It's a good question, as i recall the AIA rifles came out early 90's, so you may be right and the copyright might be defunct by now.

 

[Lightguns]

Ruger has developed a militarized bolt action called the M77 Gunsite Scout. Laminate stock, flash suppressor, 10 round detachable box mag and 16 inch barrel all in 7.62mm. It may be a good contender.  May need to loosen the tolerances for the winter arctic but interesting none the less.

 

[CombatDoc]

Ruger has developed a militarized bolt action called the M77 Gunsite Scout. Laminate stock, flash suppressor, 10 round detachable box mag and 16 inch barrel all in 7.62mm. It may be a good contender.  May need to loosen the tolerances for the winter arctic but interesting none the less.

I have thought that the Ruger Scout rifle, developed from the concepts espoused by Saint Jeffrey of Gunsite, would be an obvious choice for a suitable bolt action replacement to the Lee Enfield. But the folks at Ruger are likely not enthused at handing over the production data to Colt Canada.

 

[Lightguns]

For sure, which brings us back to the silly decision of going with COLT to make a rifle they do not even have in inventory.

 

[dapaterson]

The strategic intent is to maintain an armaments industry in Canada so that, in the event of conflict, the defence industrial base remains available and we do not have to rely on foreign sources of supply.

 

[Ostrozac]

The strategic intent is to maintain an armaments industry in Canada so that, in the event of conflict, the defence industrial base remains available and we do not have to rely on foreign sources of supply.

That's a legitimate policy goal. The problem is that Colt manufactures a limited range of weapons, too limited to meet the complete needs of the CF, and yet because Colt is such a major player in the world's arms industry, many competing companies (Ruger, Sig, Glock) seem reluctant to closely cooperate with it. So we're probably going to have to show some flexibility on this project if we want the best rifle available.

Or else we are stuck with hoping that some company submits a weapon design that vaguely meets the requirements. Or find a design that is open-source that Colt can make in Kitchener.

 

[dapaterson]

I'm not arguing the reality on the ground, merely trying to provide the context in which that decision is made.

 

[KevinB]

NO Firearms Manufacturer is going to willing hand over their TDP to Colt Canada.

IF the Canadian Government is serious about maintaining Small Arms capability, then it needs to re-invest in Dominion Arsenals.

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

Don't forget North American Arms out of Quebec City either!

 

[daftandbarmy]

NO Firearms Manufacturer is going to willing hand over their TDP to Colt Canada.

IF the Canadian Government is serious about maintaining Small Arms capability, then it needs to re-invest in Dominion Arsenals.

And with the very small numbers (relatively speaking) of rifles we're talking about, we could probably handle the Rangers' needs through a UOR and head down to a Cabela's and pick up what we need next weekend  ;D

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

And with the very small numbers (relatively speaking) of rifles we're talking about, we could probably handle the Rangers' needs through a UOR and head down to a Cabela's and pick up what we need next weekend  ;D

Oh how I wish it were that easy.

I have not received an update since 23 July 13 where I was informed the SOR was signed, but the expectation is to begin the trials in the Spring of 2014.

Keep in mind though that the NCRR is not going to be used exclusively by the Rangers, but will be used by units deploying North for predator control.  The ARCG in 4 Cdn Div has already been training on the Lee Enfield so they have the internal capability when North.  Just something to think about, not that it changes things all that much.

 

[wildman]

Here is the final report from the Human Factors study comissioned in regards to the New Ranger Rifle from 2010 which surveyed Rangers in person all over the country http://cradpdf.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/PDFS/unc111/p535161_A1b.pdf (be forewarned it is long and dry reading but well worth it).  It includes rates of part failures on the enfield, requirements both desired and chosen, statistics on use by Rangers and also what types of firearms an average Ranger already owns in addition to his or her service rifle as well as a whole lot more.  Also Id like to add that I work in a gun shop and own a Ruger Scout.  I know of at least 4 other Rangers who own the Scout rifle privately, we all like it alot.  Of everything commercially available nothing else in that price range comes close to what our mandatory requirments are, in fact I cant even think of a more expensive match... 

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

I have previously read this thread and re-read it entirely today, there is little alot of misinformation and hearsay.

I don't think your comments were directed towards myself (hopefully), but I can assure you that everything I post in regards to the NCRR is coming from a position of knowledge and fact and is not misinformation or heresay.

I have a copy of the new amended SOR that was signed Nov 2013.  Unfortunately since my last update dates have once again shifted and trials are not expected to begin until 2015 with hopeful delivery in 2016.  We are going to have a meeting in St-Jean in the Spring, but no specifics or details have been pushed out yet.

 

[Lightguns]

Mossberg has just brought out the MVP patrol in 223 and there is talk of one in 308, both to use STANAG magazines.  Cheap magazine portable and militaryish

 

[Fabius]

Based off of the problems previously encountered with the requirement to have the TDP of what ever rifle selected provided to Colt Canada for manufacture and maintenance and the firearms industry's justifiied reluctance / refusal to do so, what part of the requirement has changed that will actually see firearms manufactures willing to put their rifles up for the selection?

Is this going to be a straight COTs purchase?
Is or can Colt Canada be cut out of the whole process?
Any idea what rifles have or are going to be submitted for testing? If some of the big players don't want to participate then our options are going to be restricted.

 

[KevinB]

I'd argue the survey methodology was flawed.  Clearly biased towards what the Ranger's already new/had - and not giving option for other systems that could make the actual technical requirements.

My other comment is the SME base - may be deep in patrolling experience but given the QA answers don't really have a clue when it comes down to kitting out a weapon system.

For argument sake - Brass Rod for Cleaning, what should be written is non-ferrous cleaning rod which whatever requirements they have - I'd argue that a carbon fiber rod would probably suit them better, weigh less and not stick to their hands in the cold...
  But hey what do I know.

 

[wildman]

Canadian.Trucker, I did not aim that comment at anyone in particular and on second look it was alittle rash.  Just frustrated with the here say and suggestions of platforms that are completely unsuitable and I know first hand because they are sitting on the shelf in the shop right now.  LightGuns, have you handled an MVP?  They are a very cheaply built rifle, shoots decent but the action itself is horendous, remember this rifle will probly be in service another 60 years in extreme conditions down to -45 at least and the MVP isnt upto the task at all...  Kevin.B, a carbon rod is an awesome idea except for one hitch, I dont know of any field expedient carbon rods on the market(small sections), a one piece is out of the question for field use.  On that note the string pull through weve been issued may or may not remove snow from the bore but a coated cable pull through will always poke it out because its stiff.  Its is specified the rifle be issued in a hardcase with a soft case as well, I would highly recommend something like the Nomar gun scabbard http://nomaralaska.com/gunscabbard.htm .  It is durable and floats when the top is rolled down properly just like a dry bag, this would prevent rifles from going to the bottom of the river which has happened alarmingly often over the years... 

 

[Ostrozac]

The hard part isn't selecting a weapon that can do the job. The hard part is either:

1. Finding something that Colt can actually manufacture
or
2. Making the decision to buy something that is not manufactured in Kitchener

We have a similar problem with the pistol replacement project.

 

[suffolkowner]

I was under the impression that Colt (Colt Canada?) was partnering with Cooper Arms to provide a rifle?
Doesn't Colt (not Colt Canada) already produce a 7.62 bolt action rifle as well?