Search for New Canadian Ranger Rifle (merged)

[The Bread Guy]

Mr. Den Tandt should learn what's required of a rifle, to be of use in those conditions, before he starts running his gob about off the shelf purchases from Cambodian Tire.

What am I talking about! :facepalm:

Dare to dream ....

 

[Haletown]

Do any of those languages even have a written version? Can any one other than the person writing it read it? As far as I can recall there was no Native American written language. So you can add a few more years on to that to teach every one said language.

The Roman alphabet is widely used.

Syllabics, in invention of an RC missionary has some traction in the Eastern Arctic.

99% of current Rangers would do fine in English ( my guess, I am out of date)

The survey would yield a lot of diverse opinions. 

The guys I knew way back when were exceptionally good shots because they were exceptionally good hunters.

300 yards, standing,  they would drop a Caribou with the first shot 95% of the time.  Uphill, downhill, big winds . . .  they were great shots.  Dinner depended on it

Don't  know if the current Rangers has the same amount of practice and skill as the guys back in the 80's. 


.303 very suitable but 7.62 is plentiful and I doubt they would mind the change.

Semi auto is up to them.  Not like they need to put lots of rounds down range. These guys would stay distant and snipe.

 

[NavyShooter]

The guys I knew way back when were exceptionally good shots because they were exceptionally good hunters.

300 yards, standing,  they would drop a Caribou with the first shot 95% of the time.  Uphill, downhill, big winds . . .  they were great shots.  Dinner depended on it

Don't  know if the current Rangers has the same amount of practice and skill as the guys back in the 80's. 


.303 very suitable but 7.62 is plentiful and I doubt they would mind the change.

Semi auto is up to them.  Not like they need to put lots of rounds down range. These guys would stay distant and snipe.

Some of them are indeed OUTSTANDING shots with those rifles.  Watching them get into a modified Hawkins position with the butt dug into the ground and get 10 rounds rapid out....impressive.

For the rest...

Nope.

They should observe and report....I don't think they are intended to be snipers, or even to really engage in open warfare.  Not their mandate.

NS

 

[Haletown]

Some of them are indeed OUTSTANDING shots with those rifles.  Watching them get into a modified Hawkins position with the butt dug into the ground and get 10 rounds rapid out....impressive.

For the rest...

Nope.

They should observe and report....I don't think they are intended to be snipers, or even to really engage in open warfare.  Not their mandate.

NS

Agreed.  Shooting means they have been spotted.

I was trying to make the point "if" they engaged they would do so to their advantage . . .  Long range, placed shots, no need for volume fire.

Agreed.  Shooting means they have been spotted.

I was trying to make the point "if" they engaged they would do so to their advantage . . .  Long range, placed shots, no need for volume fire. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Some of them are indeed OUTSTANDING shots with those rifles.  Watching them get into a modified Hawkins position with the butt dug into the ground and get 10 rounds rapid out....impressive.

For the rest...

Nope.

They should observe and report....I don't think they are intended to be snipers, or even to really engage in open warfare.  Not their mandate.

NS

Of course the problem is that the other side rarely supports your vision on how things should happen. A stupid incident happens up there, it's a good chance that it may be these guys who get dragged into the middle of it.

 

[UnwiseCritic]

I own a lee enfield, love it to death. (built in 1943). The mag needs a new spring and that's about it. Ammo is expensive and I could see it being difficult to find in bulk for a good price. Also I'm sure replacements parts on a large scale is becoming difficult.

I know Russia has a bunch of mosin nagants hanging around, I like it. But if we're going to replace our .303s for the above problems. It wouldn't be my first choice. Also I hate shooting that thing from the prone. And I think it is too long. Not preferable for slinging it on your back. Let alone in the woods on a snowmobile in three feet of snow.

If I were to go work as a ranger some of the specifications I would want.

60 degree bolt throw (faster follow up shots to put down dangerous game)

Short bolt so that I would not have to lift my face up and lose sight picture to reload.

Barrel length of no more than 22 inches, no less than 20.

Stopping power (30-06 would be good. It is readily available and comes in a huge variety) plus it would have some good range on it. Similar trajectory to the .303 as well as recoil. So it wouldn't be new to the users.

The rifle should be able to hold 1-2 inch groups. Those guys can shoot so let's give them a rifle they can really put to use.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I own a lee enfield, love it to death. (built in 1943). The mag needs a new spring and that's about it. Ammo is expensive and I could see it being difficult to find in bulk for a good price. Also I'm sure replacements parts on a large scale is becoming difficult.

I know Russia has a bunch of mosin nagants hanging around, I like it. But if we're going to replace our .303s for the above problems. It wouldn't be my first choice. Also I hate shooting that thing from the prone. And I think it is too long. Not preferable for slinging it on your back. Let alone in the woods on a snowmobile in three feet of snow.

If I were to go work as a ranger some of the specifications I would want.

60 degree bolt throw (faster follow up shots to put down dangerous game)

Short bolt so that I would not have to lift my face up and lose sight picture to reload.

Barrel length of no more than 22 inches, no less than 20.

Stopping power (30-06 would be good. It is readily available and comes in a huge variety) plus it would have some good range on it. Similar trajectory to the .303 as well as recoil. So it wouldn't be new to the users.

The rifle should be able to hold 1-2 inch groups. Those guys can shoot so let's give them a rifle they can really put to use.

Mosins were alreadt discussed here.

There are shorter versions than the infantry model.

Look up the M38 Mosin Nagant seen below

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I am impressed with mine, but the bolt is no easy thing to use. I noticed the Tula versions have a slight bevel on the front of the receiver (or bolt) to make turning the bolt easier to turn down. Mine is a Izhevsk.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I am impressed with mine, but the bolt is no easy thing to use. I noticed the Tula versions have a slight bevel on the front of the receiver (or bolt) to make turning the bolt easier to turn down. Mine is a Izhevsk.

I've built up a few and have two sporterised Tulas left in my collection.

I've posted the one I did for my daughter before, but will again 'cause it came out so well ;D

 

[UnwiseCritic]

That is indeed a nice build. I just don't like taking follow up shots on that action.

IMO, I still think 30-06 would be the way to go with my above specifications. Plus what would the cost associated be with converting the rifles? And the only ammo I know for it uses copper cases. And the cost of copper is rising rapidly. And when used in any semi-auto rifle the extractor tears through the base of the casing. I have not yet witnessed this on a bolt action gun.

I know Russia has experimented with modifying the mosin nagant. (see link)

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/rus/ots48-e.html

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Lots of ammo available out there that's not copper cased. It is also far from an anemic cartridge and can preform on par with the .303, being almost identical including a bullet dia of .311.

Just a tidbit, the 7.62 x 54R was designed as an MG round then used for rifles.

Read the earlier parts of the thread for discussion on semi vs bolt.

Let's not forget also, the Mosin was designed for that environment that the Rangers operate in.

However, the Mosin won't be the replacement and we've beat that horse to death already.

 

[UnwiseCritic]

I believe I just haven't seen  them. I worked with them up north and I think bolt is the way to go. I guess let's just see if the government uses common sense or gets in bed with the wrong contract to advance their political party.

 

[Eaglelord17]

What about commissioning India to produce some more 7.62x51 2A1 Lee Enfields with some extra parts. They still have the machinery, they just produce sporting rifles with it now so it would only take a little bit of retooling for them to be able to reproduce the 2A1. The advantages are 7.62x51 is a standard cartridge, so tons of ammo is available at a cheaper rate than .303 British (also gives the rangers more options for what type of round they want to use), little retraining for the rangers (same gun just some slight cosmetic differences). Maybe give them a little better sight (the 2A1's have a notch sight so give them a aperture sight or something of the like). I could also see this working for the government as they want to make stronger ties with India.

 

[dapaterson]

The Munitions Supply Program (despite the less than stellar 2007 audit from CRS http://www.crs-csex.forces.gc.ca/reports-rapports/pdf/2007/12581014-eng.pdf) has DND going to Colt Canada (formerly Diemaco) for all small arms.



Munitions Supply Program (MSP)

Some degree of weapons support shall be conducted by Canada's Small Arms Strat- egic Source and Centre of Excellence under the Munitions Supply Program, currently Colt Canada. [E]ventual bidders will be required to enter into an agreement to provide a Technical Data Package (TDP) to the Crown with the understanding that the TDP will be passed to Colt Canada in order that:

a.  for National Security reasons, the [New Canadian Ranger Rifle] will be produced in
    Canada by  Colt Canada under license; and

b.  3rd  line depot-level maintenance and Life Cycle support can be provided to this
    [New Canadian Ranger Rifle] weapons fleet by Colt Canada.


Source: http://www.casr.ca/doc-pa-ranger-rifle.htm

 

[Ostrozac]

And the involvement of Colt Canada complicates matters greatly, just as it does with the pistol replacement, since Colt currently doesn't make a large-bore bolt action rifle. Whichever company provides the Canadian Ranger Rifle will have to do it in partnership with Colt Canada, and I suspect that Colt's major North American competitors will be none too keen to help Colt expand into the bolt-gun market. I expect that the usual places we would look to for off-the-shelf bolt guns (Ruger, Remington) may not be keen to get involved.

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

And the involvement of Colt Canada complicates matters greatly, just as it does with the pistol replacement, since Colt currently doesn't make a large-bore bolt action rifle. Whichever company provides the Canadian Ranger Rifle will have to do it in partnership with Colt Canada, and I suspect that Colt's major North American competitors will be none too keen to help Colt expand into the bolt-gun market. I expect that the usual places we would look to for off-the-shelf bolt guns (Ruger, Remington) may not be keen to get involved.

And that right there is one of the main reasons the project was initially hitting some significant roadbumps even before the SAMP was delayed, because a firearms company is not very happy after winning a contract to then hand over the designs to another company to have their rifle built.  The initial plan was to have a new rifle in our Rangers hands next year, but the plan is now to have it pushed North starting in 2015 (yes, I know the government announcement said 2016).

As for the discussion of the .30-06 round, it isn't happening.  We're going the route of 7.62 (.308) since we already have FMJ in the system, and we're looking to get soft-point as well for use in the rifle for predator control.

I also have to chuckle at the talk about the "sharpshooters of the North", because if you see how many of the Rangers shoot/hunt you would get a good laugh.  Granted some of them are pretty crack shots, but I have also seen them miss targets at 50m by over 3 feet to the left or right.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I also have to chuckle at the talk about the "sharpshooters of the North", because if you see how many of the Rangers shoot/hunt you would get a good laugh.  Granted some of them are pretty crack shots, but I have also seen them miss targets at 50m by over 3 feet to the left or right.

To be fair though, you were probably on an ATV  ;D

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Sad to think that we seem currently unable to produce locally the parts for a No.4. Considering the terms for the contract, buy the license and plans off of AIA (who likely need the cash anyways) and have Colt make them here.

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

To be fair though, you were probably on an ATV  ;D

If only that was a viable excuse, sadly it wasn't.  And it wasn't me that was shooting d&b 

 

[dapaterson]

If only that was a viable excuse, sadly it wasn't.  And it wasn't me that was shooting d&b 

Reminds me of a solider who was always a terrible shot on the range.  Finally, someone realized that he was always closing his right eye - hard to get a sight picture when you close that eye.