Sailor Derek de Jong and Other Ship Misconducts?

[Mike5]

Dumb question here -- but it must be a pain to carry beer on board an MCDV?  There must be an expense to transporting / storing / cooling -- I would think that space would be needed for more important stores like food, fuel and ammo?  On the basis of cost alone -- control issues aside -- wouldn't it be more economical to carry hard liquor?

 

[DAA]

I think this was said earlier, but as one of the resident "dinosaurs" pleases allow me to give some background.

In the 90s I found the message coming from higher HQ was that soldiers were not to be trusted, nor should they be allowed to be given tasks then allowed to do them unsupervised. If a Pte was given a task, he had to have maximum supervision at all times so he could not make mistakes and learn. He had to have a MCpl or Sergeant peering over his shoulder at all times.
This was in reality the "decade of darkness" that plagues our military to this day.

It's the "pendulum" effect coming back around.  A Jr NCM is assigned a task by their supervisor.  The task get's completed but not to the level of satisfaction of higher and the supervisor gets drilled for not ensuring a higher standard of completion.

The end result is generally "micro-management" and or the supervisor completing the task themself.  As sad as that sounds........

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

First of all, Mike5, MCDV's carry both beer and hard liquor, and in the case at hand probably that alchoolized BC Cider since operating on the West Coast.

There is no storage problem. MCDV's have tons of storage room for everything, especially since there is whole compartment in each one dedicated to housing sonars which have yet to be installed on any of them. Instant huge beer store. But even without that its all factored in for storage.

We use to carry all that same stuff (beer, hard liquor, BC cider) for same size crew onboard the gate vessels with about 10% of the storage room available on a MCDV.

 

[Cronicbny]

Just so people dont think we're jamming booze into every crevice onboard... We have a beer and pop stores, properly locked and accounted for in each ship. As well, each mess generally has a beer fridge and a bar that are locked and controlled.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Out of curiosity, as Capt Happy has come on to say that these are NOT comparing apples to apples, does anyone know of any problems faced by other Allied nations troops,  who had less stringent alcohol regulations in theatre, on when they were on 'Decompression'?

I am a believer that since the Mid '80's, the PC treatment of Canadian Service personnel as 'children' with overly restrictive alcohol regulations, has been the cause of more problems when those Regulations were lifted than previously without those PC policies.  I saw it in Germany where a whole Sqn, from the lowest Cpl to the CO all went hog wild on a weekend during Reforger when they were allowed alcohol and there was a Beerfest on in the town they were leaguered outside of on the Czech Border.  Before there were these PC 'Alcohol Policies', the majority had handled their liquor like responsible adults, but when they fell under the 'No Alcohol' policy, once it was lifted they acted like kids in a candy store.

Stress may be a factor, but I think the treatment of the members as mindless, irresponsible children was more likely the larger cause.

George, you remember what happened in Visoko, when the Command Team decided that three beers a day would be the solution?

The Padre implored them not to do it. He stated people would start hiding it, then drinking as much as possible, in nooks, crannies and sea containers, in order to get rid of it and get their buzz.

Truer words were never spoken. Alcohol related offences went through the roof creating a daily line up for charges, requiring the building of new cells and having to wait in line for three weeks after conviction, because there was such a line up to do your digger time.

I never saw so much Molson XXX sold in one place. The Padre was also right about that also. Slamming three cans of that stuff was equal to drinking 9-12 beers at regular pace.

 

[George Wallace]

George, you remember what happened in Visoko, when the Command Team decided that three beers a day would be the solution?

The Padre implored them not to do it. He stated people would start hiding it, then drinking as much as possible, in nooks, crannies and sea containers, in order to get rid of it and get their buzz.

Truer words were never spoken. Alcohol related offences went through the roof creating a daily line up for charges, requiring the building of new cells and having to wait in line for three weeks after conviction, because there was such a line up to do your digger time.

I never saw so much Molson XXX sold in one place. The Padre was also right about that also. Slamming three cans of that stuff was equal to drinking 9-12 beers at regular pace.

Ah, yes.  Charge Bat 2.  The worse offenders for breaking the rules were the officers and Snr NCO's, with the RSM leading the pack.  Funny how only MCpl's and below were charged and sent home.  The one Sgt that was charged, doesn't count, as he was cannon fodder being a MCpl who was Sgt WSE for that extended Tour. 

 

[PhoenixWright]

Meh, It's pretty obvious what has occurred here. The way rumours go, I am certain everyone in the navy has heard about the looming cloud over our ability to drink at sea. One way or another it was coming, but if you had some big event to point to and say: "This is why booze went away." That sure would be nice, it would save some Admiral from being called a douchebag.

" Commodore Craig Baines has been charged with the review, and Norman said he expects to have the preliminary findings by September.

Sources say Norman wanted to send a strong message that excessive drinking and bad behaviour will not be tolerated."



It is pretty much spelled out there that they already know what the results of the review will be. This is lifted from the article posted initially from ctv.  Just another way the navy is becoming a political machine, this will go well with us posting guards at he gates of the Halifax Dockyard to make sure not a single sailor leaves early.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Just another way the navy is becoming a political machine, this will go well with us posting guards at he gates of the Halifax Dockyard to make sure not a single sailor leaves early.

They're not doing that crap with the Chiefs again are they?  :

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Oh, like the "Dress Police" that used to wander around Stad?  I laughed at that one.  Seriously. 

Sounds to me like the folks (who were supposed to be) in command of that MCDV failed that task.  Maybe the decision to bring her home was actually the right one, if anyone hasn't thought of that as possible.

This wasn't just 1 sailor who got his drunk-on and spent the night sleeping it off, compliments of the city.

 

[JesseWZ]

Oh, like the "Dress Police" that used to wander around Stad?  I laughed at that one.  Seriously. 

Sounds to me like the folks (who were supposed to be) in command of that MCDV failed that task.  Maybe the decision to bring her home was actually the right one, if anyone hasn't thought of that as possible.

This wasn't just 1 sailor who got his drunk-on and spent the night sleeping it off, compliments of the city.

:goodpost:

 

[Monsoon]

Sounds to me like the folks (who were supposed to be) in command of that MCDV failed that task.

Sounds to me like you can't possibly have enough information to have reached that conclusion. If you knew how these ships are crewed (i.e. with a nearly continual turnover of personnel, including key positions - something that's becoming more common in the rest of the fleet too), you too might be less quick to condemn the individuals trying to manage the situation. I'm not ruling out individual failings (neither can I conclude them), but I know for a fact that there's a systemic issue that contributes to the challenge of maintaining unit discipline and cohesion.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I don't need to have swanky executive curl ranks to see when there is a problem.  I'm in a pretty dynamic environment at work.  Different crew members, skippers, all that too.  Things don't fall to pieces if we get a new TacNav or L/AES Op or CO.  :2c:

The fact that she was brought home says lots about these "unknown realities" to me.  I know if a crew and airplane were 'recalled', I'd take that as a sign that REALLY bad shit was on the go.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I am not convinced that one an compare a ship's crew on deployment and port visit with an aircrew's out of base stay over, but in any event that is not really at stake here.

If one reads my first post above on the subject, you will see that, taken in isolation, none of the incidents at issue amount to anything unusual or would warrant any special action. It is the unusual occurrence of three of them out of the same crew that flashes signal lights.

However, as I have indicated, while it may indicate a command problem, it could just as well be a sheer coincidence or have another explanation altogether. This is why it warrants investigation, but not condemnation before all the facts are known. BTW, such investigation in itself would justify a recall, since it would be difficult to carry out in the middle of an EX like RIMPAC and it's better undertaken sooner rather than later.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I just listened to Rick Howe interview a former Naval Officer, Mr. Hanson, on the controversy.  Rick tried unsucessfully to stir up garbage and was politely corrected.  It was a good interview.  Also it as mentioned that Commodore Auchterlonie has stated that he has lost confidence in the ability of command for the subject vessel and this is why it was being recalled home.

Mr. Hanson was of the opinion that all of this is being blown way out of proportion by the MSM, and that whatever went wrong is at the leadership level.  He also hoped that the Federal Govt wasn't going to have a political knee jerk reaction and do something rash.

I suppose we will be hearing about this for some time to come.

 

[George Wallace]

I just listened to Rick Howe interview a former Naval Officer, Mr. Hanson, on the controversy.  Rick tried unsucessfully to stir up garbage and was politely corrected.  It was a good interview.  Also it as mentioned that Commodore Auchterlonie has stated that he has lost confidence in the ability of command for the subject vessel and this is why it was being recalled home.

Mr. Hanson was of the opinion that all of this is being blown way out of proportion by the MSM, and that whatever went wrong is at the leadership level.  He also hoped that the Federal Govt wasn't going to have a political knee jerk reaction and do something rash.

I suppose we will be hearing about this for some time to come.

>  A la Airborne Regiment.....Bring out the cutting torches, we are going to dismantle the Whitehorse.    :

 

[cupper]

I am not convinced that one an compare a ship's crew on deployment and port visit with an aircrew's out of base stay over, but in any event that is not really at stake here.

If one reads my first post above on the subject, you will see that, taken in isolation, none of the incidents at issue amount to anything unusual or would warrant any special action. It is the unusual occurrence of three of them out of the same crew that flashes signal lights.

However, as I have indicated, while it may indicate a command problem, it could just as well be a sheer coincidence or have another explanation altogether. This is why it warrants investigation, but not condemnation before all the facts are known. BTW, such investigation in itself would justify a recall, since it would be difficult to carry out in the middle of an EX like RIMPAC and it's better undertaken sooner rather than later.

I have to agree with OGBD that the incidents appear to be taken as a whole and not in isolation. However I also suspect that the higher-ups may also be taking other highly publicized incidents (such as the deJong case) into account and lumping them in with this latest set and have decided that this will be the point where policy and procedures need to will be addressed through out the fleet.

Also, these publicized incidents may only be one of several, those of which have not been reported in the media, but have come to the attention of those who make policy. I suspect that had the vessel not been recalled, there would have been little if any coverage of the individual incidents in Canadian media.

 

[Privateer]

From the Globe and Mail:  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/navy-to-investigate-allegations-against-hmcs-whitehorse-sailors/article19649341/

It is reported that the investigation ordered into the policies governing the conduct of RCN personnel ashore was triggered by more than just the recent WHITEHORSE incidents:

One Canadian sailor was arrested by San Diego police but later released due to a lack of evidence, the navy said. A source outside the Canadian military said in that incident, the sailor arrested was suspected of shoplifting. In a second case, a sailor was allegedly intoxicated, spending the night in a drunk tank. Military police are also investigating a third case involving an allegation of what may be sexual assault or misconduct.

The move to draft a new policy for sailors in port was not based solely on the Whitehorse incidents, but part of a larger series of recent incidents that led its commander Vice-Admiral Mark Norman “to say enough is enough” this week, Cdr. Genest said.

Other cases of misconduct weighing on the navy, their spokesman says, include allegations of drunken sailors in Key West, Fla., in 2012, as well as the matter of Lt. Derek de Jong who was fined and reprimanded for deserting his post on HMCS Preserver, a supply vessel, in September, 2012. Lt. de Jong, who left his supply vessel in Key West, alleged he faced a “toxic working relationship” with a fellow officer.

 

[NavyHopeful]

This seems to me to be a growing case of "A few rotten apples spoil the bunch".  Pretty much all of the sailors (and air force) I have had the pleasure of working / sailing with tend to control themselves with regards to alcohol consumption, this entire debaucle seems to me like a brewing pot for something more.

Is it me, or does anyone else wonder what exactly is going on in the minds of some people when they are doing these things?  I can't understand why anyone would jeopardize their health, safety, career, reputation, or that of their fellow comrades when things like this occur.

To the ones who stay responsible for themselves and their wingers, I give a heartfelt 

To the ones who ruin it for the rest of us, I give you a well-deserved  :facepalm:

C'est tous, that is all.

Rev

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I am not convinced that one an compare a ship's crew on deployment and port visit with an aircrew's out of base stay over, but in any event that is not really at stake here.

Some out of base stay-overs last months, just like sailors are away from home.  Let's focus on the steak, not the peas.

 

[upandatom]

Whoa- Whoa- Whoa

Canadian drinking practices are fine, It isnt an issue.
Have none of you seen  Campus PD and americans with their 21 year Age Limit.
Forcing people dry, isnt going to be a solution. Its going to make larger problems.

We drink, We drink hard. As Canadians many of us love our beer, our hockey our Camping parties and Backyard Bonfires. 

Navy drinks very hard, a few bad apples does not spoil the whole seasons crop. Yes we are always in the media eyes, most Canadians dont care that a few boys were liquored up in San Diego.

Only reason why this spread so fast and the ship sent home- Media overplayed it, politically charged, looking for a scapegoat.  They made it worse then it is.

3 people of 35, of how many Canadians are down there on Exercise right now?

yep.

How many times in the 80s/90s did you hear about a good ole drinking time by the navy in port? Rarely if ever, my dad has told me tonnes of stories that were way worse than this from his Navy days. The internet is an amazing tool, and weapon, depending on who is using it.