Sailor Derek de Jong and Other Ship Misconducts?

[ModlrMike]

It will be interesting to see the trial transcript. I can't say that I will ever understand nor agree with his actions.

I would think that the female officer in question has brought her career to an abrupt end, regardless of what Lt(N) de Jong thinks. An adverse PER comment regarding conduct will be difficult to recover from. Particularly if she's MARS and had hoped to Captain a ship some day.

 

[Stoker]

What is the likelyhood that Mr. de Jong gets released in the short to midterm future?

I'm surprised that release was not part of the final sentencing.

He obviously won't be gong to sea again. You could never trust him not to pack it in when the going gets rough.

And the same would hold on any sort of deployment. So what do you do with him?

Hard to say, he most likely will continue to be a LT(N) until he retires. He has already been punished and unless he does something again he won't be released. Apparently he's a real scholar ashore.

 

[Stoker]

It will be interesting to see the trial transcript. I can't say that I will ever understand nor agree with his actions.

I would think that the female officer in question has brought her career to an abrupt end, regardless of what Lt(N) de Jong thinks. An adverse PER comment regarding conduct will be difficult to recover from. Particularly if she's MARS and had hoped to Captain a ship some day.

The female officer in question was loaded when she did the deed, as was many people that night. I doubt if she'll have any action taken against her as things like that happen much too often. I have seen NCO's come back from similar and worse situations and senior officers commit assault while drunk, get relieved and come back as a few years later as a CO, so anythings possible. The common denominator here is excess drinking and a culture that supports it. I enjoy a few beer, but not at the risk of my career or my life.

 

[donaldk]

<snipped>

I'm sure there is a lot more to this story, but I think he'll probably always be 'that guy'.  Not sure if he ended up getting his HOD qualitication (he would have been the A/SyO, aka baby LogO) but I think he may have a tough time getting taken seriously as the HOD.  A/HOD training can be stressful, but packing your bags doesn't really instill confidence.  I think as much as you'd try giving someone the benefit of the doubt, kind of hard to ignore.  Could be wrong, don't know anyone involved, but doesn't really seem like the best way to handle things, and I'd be nervous if that was the person supposed to be getting my parts.

Regardless of how A/HOD training is stressful or not, the conduct that this officer showed at the brow of his ship was downright inexcusable, and this was brought up in sentencing closing statement by the CM judge.  As was said in the CM, he did not wait the extra hour for the PA to secure a medical repat to Halifax.  Had he waited, this mess wouldn't have happened.

On another note, ignoring the whole alcohol bit, the only good thing about this CM is that there were other pretty damning issues brought up in the CM  that the prosecution blew open that once the transcripts are out will cause the media (face of the general public) to question how the biggest institution of the Canadian government handles internal affairs.

Loose confidence of the crew as an officer, might as well kiss your career good bye.  One may not always be on the crew's good side (and I have my fair share of angry feedback in my cabin from my guys), but having their confidence in the ability to lead them on the path to get business done is absolutely vital.

Did I go packing my bags as the EOOW when I had a family member call the MCR during flash up telling me she was going to kill herself? Nope, continued directing flash up, got a quick 5 min relief, made a couple calls, took the watch back from the other EOOW and proceeded to sea.  My brother couldn't take the BS that goes beyond this tip of the iceberg and had stress issues twice in his career causing the need for short fuse landings, and it took NMT 2 hours to sort it out properly and he was repat'd without lasting career issues.  BTW, said family mbr is still alive and somewhat well, although she ought to drop the 25+ year habit of Valium/Lorazepam and alcohol combo.

 

[Tibbson]

There is no need for the press to wait for transcripts, there were two journalists sitting there throughout.  One CBC and the other an independent.

 

[Griffon]

There is no need for the press to wait for transcripts, there were two journalists sitting there throughout.  One CBC and the other an independent.

Great...there's an unbiased source of information!  :sarcasm:
I'd wait for the transcript and read it myself if I really wanted to know what happened.

 

[PuckChaser]

I have seen NCO's come back from similar and worse situations and senior officers commit assault while drunk, get relieved and come back as a few years later as a CO, so anythings possible. The common denominator here is excess drinking and a culture that supports it. I enjoy a few beer, but not at the risk of my career or my life.

Too many comments above that I agree with to quote them all (SKTacco had a great post), but I feel this hits it the nail on the head. "Responsible" alcohol consumption needs to be encouraged, not either giving everyone free will or banning it altogether. The fact that in your career you've seen multiple instances of alcohol-related misconducts end up (with a minor speedbump) rewarded, shows to me the starting of a pattern that the top-down needs to crush. Someone needs to be made an example of: "Have some beers, but if you get drunk and punch a subordinate, your career is over." Only after the first few individuals are back on shore completing the requirements of their C&P will something change.

Personally I've seen alcohol go from the norm, to being looked upon as worse than doing pills/smoking dope. How often do you have a drug test done (save for deployment) that's not blind? If that same person shows up hungover twice but still able to work hard they're thrown to the wolves.

 

[FJAG]

Great...there's an unbiased source of information!  :sarcasm:
I'd wait for the transcript and read it myself if I really wanted to know what happened.

You'll be waiting a long time. I'm not sure what the current policy is (in days of old all CMs were transcribed while civilian trials were only transcribed if a party appealed and paid for the transcription service). Either way the transcript was/is not a document generally or easily or quickly available to the public.

What is much easier to obtain is the Reasons for Decision that are given by the judge at the end of trial. These are published both on the Chief Military Judge's website as well as on CANLII. Unfortunately I note that only one has been published so far for cases completed in 2014 and there are still a very large number unpublished for 2013. I'm not sure why that is so. They are usually fairly short and could and should be available much more quickly.

Looks like your stuck with the crap that comes from the media.

:cheers:

 

[Tibbson]

Great...there's an unbiased source of information!  :sarcasm:
I'd wait for the transcript and read it myself if I really wanted to know what happened.

Agreed but what I was refering to was the comment the press would be reading transcripts.  I remember sitting in on an inquiry going on in Ottawa while an Ottawa Sun reporter was live tweeting from the inquiry. As I read what he was treeting from 7-8 seats away from me  I couldnt help but wonder if he was sitting in the same room I was.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Regardless of how A/HOD training is stressful or not, the conduct that this officer showed at the brow of his ship was downright inexcusable, and this was brought up in sentencing closing statement by the CM judge.  As was said in the CM, he did not wait the extra hour for the PA to secure a medical repat to Halifax.  Had he waited, this mess wouldn't have happened.
...

I don't disagree; but trying to keep a semi open mind and put it in perspective for the non-navy types.  I personally wouldn't trust the guy, and there are plenty of competent LogOs waiting to go back to sea.  'When the going gets tough....run away!" doesn't really impress. A/HOD isn't super hard, but for both logs and NTOs it's trial by fire, and if you don't have a half decent mentor in your HOD and/or good support from the sailors it's pretty difficult to do your job while doing all your OJT work as well.  Having said that, finding out someone is going to crack under pressure as a trainee on a ship at peacetime is probably not a bad thing (vice during a real crisis when they are in charge).

It will be interesting to read the judgement when it's posted; I'm curious to see why the judge decided not to demote him.  Being a Lt(N) should go along with a certain assumption of being able to handle a reasonable level of responsibility and demonstrate some basic competencies, and there's probably already a few too many folks with that rank that can't meet one or the other (or both).  Kind of embarrassing really, but does make you wonder what you actually have to do to get fired.  I would personally say this is more serious then someone who smoked a joint or did something stupid while drinking and is looking at a reasonable chance of getting punted. 

 

[observor 69]

As this is a similar theme and rather than start a new thread...


Canadian naval ship ordered home for 'sailor misconduct'


CTVNews.ca Staff
Published Monday, July 14, 2014 10:56PM EDT 
Last Updated Tuesday, July 15, 2014 10:57AM EDT

In a rare move by the Royal Canadian Navy, a ship has been ordered home from a training exercise because of "sailor misconduct," CTV News has confirmed.

HMCS Whitehorse returned to Esquimalt, B.C., Monday, after Vice-Admiral Mark Norman of the RCN ordered it home from an international naval exercise called RIMPAC.

According to the U.S. Navy website, RIMPAC is the world’s largest international maritime exercise with forces from 22 nations across the world participating in this year’s exercises near Hawaii and Southern California. HMCS Whitehorse was one of two Canadian ships involved in operations off of Southern California.

A copy of an internal message sent by Norman was obtained by CTVNews.ca.

In it, Norman writes, it was "with great disappointment" that he ordered the return of HMCS Whitehorse following "three incidents of personal misconduct ashore."

At least one of the incidents involved the arrest of a Canadian sailor by police in San Diego, Calif., CTVNews.ca has confirmed.

"While the actions of a few sailors in Whitehorse was the trigger for my decision, I recalled her home because I am troubled that across the RCN a small number of our personnel have fallen short of the timeless expectations of naval service and have failed in their roles as ambassadors of their navy and country – no matter where they serve," Norman said in the message.

Cmdr. Hubert Genest told CTVNews.ca that Norman has appointed a senior officer to conduct a review of the RCN's policies and procedures regarding sailor conduct, both while aboard RCN ships and while onshore.



Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/warship-ordered-home-for-sailor-misconduct-1.1914087#ixzz37YRHHmUj

- mod edit to provide update, remove ref to other media -

 

[Cloud Cover]

I was watching the CBC interview with Evan Solomon and a Cmdr.  The RCN is hinting at a 'bold decision' to be taken wrt consumption of alcohol while on ex and in foreign ports. It seems logical to conclude that at least one consideration might be that RCN ships may now become dry ships [alcohol free with some exceptions for officers], and rules concerning leave ashore, good conduct, etc are about to be tightened up.  It is my understanding that morale in the Navy is very low, so perhaps this will be taken as a positive opportunity to shake things up and try a new course.         

 

[NavalMoose]

I don't think taking Jack's beer away will somehow raise his morale.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Yeah I get that, but don't you think Jack Ashore needs to dry out a little, unless you are referring to Jack Sparrow in which case, feel free to "party on", (but please change the flag the skull and crossbones eh?). I'm pretty certain that while the RCN is outgunned by most of its peers, I can think of no other navy that has as much access to alcohol aboard ship and actually makes it as much of a priority that the RCN does.  Something has to change....   

 

[NavalMoose]

Jack getting pissed ashore will never change, what has changed is that it's somehow become newsworthy. Any opportunity to make the mob look bad is taken by the media. If Jack is big enough and ugly enough to get into trouble then he is big and ugly enough to take his lumps...this is not news.  What is news however is a ship being ordered home by politicians who haven't got a clue and usually devote most of their time to fudging expense accounts.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Without presupposing what issues the RCN is going to delve into, I have to pose this question:

To what extent should we treat people like adults?

Sure, the RCN can remove alcohol (officially) from ships.  It can even order sailors not to drink down town while in foreign port. But, to what extent is that a good idea? And will it actually solve the root issues? It has not seemed to work for the USN, who still seem to have the full range of disciplinary issues alongside that our Navy does.

Full disclosure: I do not drink at sea. I learned that lesson the hard way. That said, I do enjoy a drink while alongside and would (generally) rather do my drinking in the Wardroom rather than downtown. I am not certain that the Government of Canada treating me like a child and ordering me not to drink, while simultaneously entrusting me with aircraft, people and weapons really makes much sense.

I would think the that the high pay-off for the RCN would be to examine with some care both how COs, XOs and Coxns are selected for their positions and the (short) length of time they are in their positions. It always comes down to leadership.

That might shed some light on how the RCN has arrived where they are today.

 

[George Wallace]

Without presupposing what issues the RCN is going to delve into, I have to pose this question:

To what extent should we treat people like adults?

Sure, the RCN can remove alcohol (officially) from ships.  It can even order sailors not to drink down town while in foreign port. But, to what extent is that a good idea? And will it actually solve the root issues? It has not seemed to work for the USN, who still seem to have the full range of disciplinary issues alongside that our Navy does.

Full disclosure: I do not drink at sea. I learned that lesson the hard way. That said, I do enjoy a drink while alongside and would (generally) rather do my drinking in the Wardroom rather than downtown. I am not certain that the Government of Canada treating me like a child and ordering me not to drink, while simultaneously entrusting me with aircraft, people and weapons really makes much sense.

I would think the that the high pay-off for the RCN would be to examine with some care both how COs, XOs and Coxns are selected for their positions and the (short) length of time they are in their positions. It always comes down to leadership.

That might shed some light on how the RCN has arrived where they are today.

We have already witnessed how these NO ALCOHOL policies have failed miserably in the past with Commanders treating their soldiers like 'children' in 4 CMBG; over three decades ago.  Once they are off that leash, they throw all caution to the wind.  I saw more problems when there were NO ALCOHOL policies, than before when adults were treated as adults and help responsible for their actions.  More recent examples can be seen in the problems that were occurring at the Decompression Center set up in Cyprus.

 

[PuckChaser]

Perhaps using simple guidelines can keep casual drinks after a hard day without going completely dry. I know of a unit recently that had a wet canteen in the field, and troops were authorized one drink per hour while it was open after training. Seemed like a rational way to moderate consumption but allow some people to unwind if they so chose to do it that way.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I was watching the CBC interview with Evan Solomon and a Cmdr.  The RCN is hinting at a 'bold decision' to be taken wrt consumption of alcohol while on ex and in foreign ports. It seems logical to conclude that at least one consideration might be that RCN ships may now become dry ships [alcohol free with some exceptions for officers], and rules concerning leave ashore, good conduct, etc are about to be tightened up.  It is my understanding that morale in the Navy is very low, so perhaps this will be taken as a positive opportunity to shake things up and try a new course.       

Officers can drink but 'below decks' can't. Yeah, that should solve the discipline problem  :sarcasm:

 

[GAP]

I think they are over reacting.

San Diego is a port town and you expect the guys to go out and not drink?

The sexual assault is an issue, but don't make everyone pay the price because of one dude.

There may be discipline problems but this sounds like a political correctness solution.