"Safe" Injection and "Reduced" Harm good for society? Don't think so

[Kirkhill]

And continuing in the theme of "babies and bathwater"

British Columbia Electric Railway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Same mindset the chucks 60mm mortars for GMGs and gasoline for batteries.

I guess the allure of seeing change before you hit your grave beats allowing for progressive change to occur "naturally"

 

[Brad Sallows]

I guess the allure of seeing change before you hit your grave

Everyone wants to experience the renewed golden age of the galactic empire; no-one wants to be among those who toil a lifetime in patient and deprived obscurity as part of the Foundation.

 

[Dana381]

Did you ever see one of the chain of Ontario hospitals when they were up and running with a decent budget. They were really well designed and welcoming structures, single story in a country setting on a very large chunk of real estate. They did not in any way resemble the notorious Queen str. that every one in the Toronto area associated with mental health

No I didn't, I grew up in Summerside PEI. My only exposure to mental health wings in hospitals was in the Prince County hospital, both the old one and the new one. The old PCH mental health wing looked just like any other wing. The new PCH one was more secure and felt like a mental jail. Neither were a desirable place to be.

@Dana381 's mother is not alone. There are many people that want to help. But society shouldn't just dump the problem on the shoulders of people like her and pretend it has been solved.

Well done on your mom! This is one of the kinds of out-of-hospital care that can be offered, as well as other types of supported housing or drop-in help for people living "on the economy". That's all the kind of help that wasn't set up (or not enough of it quickly enough) when de-institutionalization happened, which is one element of the problem of getting the right help to the right people.

That's exactly why it's politically cooler to put up buildings than to spend money on staffing them - also easier as one-time capital funding, too.

Thanks for the kind words.
The funny part is I don't think mom is aware of the impact she had. I was realizing it myself as I was typing my post. Mom was just being herself. She genuinely cares for people. She went on to spend much of the last 10 years coming alongside family members who were dying. She spent two years hanging out with my father in law who was dying of COPD. Then a year with her baby brother who was dying of prostate cancer (died just after his 50th birthday). Then a year or so with her mom who passed at 83 I think.

I guess my point in all this is that she didn't set out to help these guys, it just happened because they seen her care was genuine. I don't think what she did could be copied by a government program.

A lot of that was the ease of throwing people ‘away’ into those sorts of facilities

There needs to be some sort of balance.
Clearly some people do need ‘the rubber room’ type of facility as they are an extreme danger to themselves and others.

However the vast majority of persons do not, and the old dump them in the sewer method clogged and backed up with resulted in what exists now.

I’ve picked up 2 ‘customers’ from MH facilities, for transportation elsewhere. Neither was a good person, and I doubt they where every either going to get their needed help, nor are they going to be out in public anytime before the next century…

I have seen many people who did need help, that were not yet far gone, but the best one could do was slap bracelets on and take them to the Country Detention center.

I’m far from a MH professional, and I’m not a big fan of public spending, but I’m also a human being who sees others who need help, that if not given help will be a re-occurring problem or worse, and so in this case on can be humanitarian and financial prudent.

Your very right, There is no one size fits all solution. I am not an MH professional either but my observation is that most government programs focus on one aspect of the problem and not the general well being of the clients.

My wife's cousin tried the methadone program and stopped it because it was just enabling the addiction. He then watched his sister be enabled by it and get more addicted. There was no support to get off opiates only the methadone to take the symptoms away. According to him methadone was no different than heroine.

I have never been to a safe injection site. They seem to solve the problem of spreading disease but what do they do to address the underlying problem that makes someone want to shoot up in the first place.

Drug addiction is a complex issue and people are complex and we have complex problems. People who can't navigate life without drugs need complex solutions.

NA works well for some, it is a complex program that requires someone to really want to get clean.

I have a friend who got clean from cocaine and other drugs through Teen Challenge, he went on to be successful and have a beautiful family.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... she didn't set out to help these guys, it just happened because they seen her care was genuine. I don't think what she did could be copied by a government program ...

You're right about government being able to copy, but governments of all colours can become more flexible re: what they fund/encourage.

Your mom's approach seems to echo that of some businesses who focus on training/employing people with mental health/developmental issues, people just outta prison, folks (esp. vets) wrestling with PTSD et. al. - I think "social enterprise" is the buzzword for this.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Are you speaking from experience or from your own mindset? He (my relative) speaks from experience like 15 years of extreme hurt.

Everyone's life is different. We don't live in a controlled petri dish. What affects someone and what the effects are, can't be transferred. Generalities and commonalities exist, but people's addictive personalities are their own. Some are more prone to it than others. To blame cannabis for addiction woes while not addressing approved industrial opiates or legal alcohol is just cherry picking your poison. Not all addicts are down and out living in alleys. Just like high functioning alcoholics, many people function just fine while using drugs of choice. Some don't. Addicts won't accept help if they don't, want it. I've seen people in withdrawal for alcohol, opiates, street drugs, even nicotine. I've never witnessed someone jonesing for cannabis.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Everyone's life is different. We don't live in a controlled petri dish. What affects someone and what the effects are, can't be transferred. Generalities and commonalities exist, but people's addictive personalities are their own. Some are more prone to it than others. To blame cannabis for addiction woes while not addressing approved industrial opiates or legal alcohol is just cherry picking your poison. Not all addicts are down and out living in alleys. Just like high functioning alcoholics, many people function just fine while using drugs of choice. Some don't. Addicts won't accept help if they don't, want it. I've seen people in withdrawal for alcohol, opiates, street drugs, even nicotine. I've never witnessed someone jonesing for cannabis.

Yet for decades all I heard was "First thing I'll do when I get out is spark up a big fat doobie"....not "have a drink", " do a line", etc, so ones mileage may vary.

 

[OldSolduer]

Yet for decades all I heard was "First thing I'll do when I get out is spark up a big fat doobie"....not "have a drink", " do a line", etc, so ones mileage may vary.

You and I know there is absolutely nothing wrong with those people - they are "misunderstood".

 

[daftandbarmy]

You and I know there is absolutely nothing wrong with those people - they are "misunderstood".

Legalizing dope should help though, right?

Is there a link between marijuana use and psychiatric disorders?​

The relationship between cannabis (marijuana) use and psychiatric disorders is complex, and more research is needed to better understand the short- and long-term impacts of cannabis use on mental health. Considerable—though not all—evidence has linked cannabis use to earlier onset of psychosis in people with genetic risk factors for psychotic disorders, including schizophrenia, as well as worse symptoms in people who already have these conditions. Although less consistent, there is also evidence linking cannabis use to other mental illnesses and self-harm, including suicidal thoughts and behaviors.

Is there a link between marijuana use and psychiatric disorders? | National Institute on Drug Abuse

Several studies have linked marijuana use to increased risk for psychiatric disorders, including psychosis (schizophrenia), depression, anxiety, and substance use disorders, but whether and to what extent it actually causes these conditions is not always easy to determine.

nida.nih.gov

 

[OldSolduer]

Legalizing dope should help though, right?

Is there a link between marijuana use and psychiatric disorders?​

The relationship between cannabis (marijuana) use and psychiatric disorders is complex, and more research is needed to better understand the short- and long-term impacts of cannabis use on mental health. Considerable—though not all—evidence has linked cannabis use to earlier onset of psychosis in people with genetic risk factors for psychotic disorders, including schizophrenia, as well as worse symptoms in people who already have these conditions. Although less consistent, there is also evidence linking cannabis use to other mental illnesses and self-harm, including suicidal thoughts and behaviors.

Is there a link between marijuana use and psychiatric disorders? | National Institute on Drug Abuse

Several studies have linked marijuana use to increased risk for psychiatric disorders, including psychosis (schizophrenia), depression, anxiety, and substance use disorders, but whether and to what extent it actually causes these conditions is not always easy to determine.

nida.nih.gov

Sure it will.

I said years ago that chronic marijuana use will lead to bad things. I was called every name in the book (including a Rona Ambrose neo-con) and to follow the science.

Chronic use of any substance that alters the mind will lead to physical and psychiatric issues. But what do I know?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Yet for decades all I heard was "First thing I'll do when I get out is spark up a big fat doobie"....not "have a drink", " do a line", etc, so ones mileage may vary.

What's your point?

Oh wait, I,forgot, you disagree with cannabis use. It's a drug, a crutch, a path to addiction and ruin. That's fine, you are no authority, any more than I am. Our opinions are equal. Go have another beer Bruce, but don't get crazy, K? And try not talk to anyone smoking a joint while your drinking it. Someone might think your a hypocrite.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Sure it will.

I said years ago that chronic marijuana use will lead to bad things. I was called every name in the book (including a Rona Ambrose neo-con) and to follow the science.

Chronic use of any substance that alters the mind will lead to physical and psychiatric issues. But what do I know?

Your last line is correct. I never stated otherwise. We saw it everyday at work, didn't we? How many people do you know that had a coffee course? So yeah, we had drug abusers and addicts in the CAF and worked with them daily. Let's not pretend that alcohol is the holiest of holies in the drug world and it's OK to have a beer or shot, but if the guy next to you has a joint, he's an out of control addict. How many do you know that eat handfuls of airborne smarties? Drug abuse right? Do we condemn that person? Nope, we grew up accepting it. He was cool. So it's OK. But use a natural plant that people have used for thousands of years and your a pariah.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Legalizing dope should help though, right?

Is there a link between marijuana use and psychiatric disorders?​

The relationship between cannabis (marijuana) use and psychiatric disorders is complex, and more research is needed to better understand the short- and long-term impacts of cannabis use on mental health. Considerable—though not all—evidence has linked cannabis use to earlier onset of psychosis in people with genetic risk factors for psychotic disorders, including schizophrenia, as well as worse symptoms in people who already have these conditions. Although less consistent, there is also evidence linking cannabis use to other mental illnesses and self-harm, including suicidal thoughts and behaviors.

Is there a link between marijuana use and psychiatric disorders? | National Institute on Drug Abuse

Several studies have linked marijuana use to increased risk for psychiatric disorders, including psychosis (schizophrenia), depression, anxiety, and substance use disorders, but whether and to what extent it actually causes these conditions is not always easy to determine.

nida.nih.gov

Good source. People that make money at a company with an agenda to demonize drug use.

For every source or article against, there's one, equally academic and sourced, for it. We can spend a month posting articles and counter articles.

I expect people here to be able to do their own research, separate wheat from chaff and draw their own educated conclusions. However, there's lots of people that are simply operating on their own bias as the base of their beliefs.

 

[YZT580]

@KevinB your last bit kind of hits the nail on the head. We often are penny wise and pound foolish when it comes to social spending.

We cut the legs out of MH systems, people in crisis have no place to turn to, people self medicate, we develop a societal epidemic of substance abuse and the crime that fuels it, the judicial and correctional systems get overloaded, and it all costs a lot more to fix and maintain than if we just helped people help themselves in the first place.

But sadly, unless something affects a taxpayer personally (be it defence or MH funding)... it's a superfluous line item on a ledger ripe for the picking to lower the costs of running our society.

and we always have the useless experts who will attest, with reenforcement from their degrees and backed up by budget conscious politicians and left-wing bleeding hearts that all that is needed is a compassionate society and improved upbringing to totally eliminate the problem. We used to have a chain of schools to assist the developmentally handicapped now all we have is a part-time assistant in a crowded classroom.

Good source. People that make money at a company with an agenda to demonize drug use.

For every source or article against, there's one, equally academic and sourced, for it. We can spend a month posting articles and counter articles.

I expect people here to be able to do their own research, separate wheat from chaff and draw their own educated conclusions. However, there's lots of people that are simply operating on their own bias as the base of their beliefs.

and then there are those who have witnessed the damage caused. It is one thing to have removed the criminal implications for simple possession or even production for personal use it is something else entirely to put the full force of our marketing to work to encourage its use. Consider tobacco. Its use has been demonized for years to the extent that the product comes in a plain wrapped package and is stored behind an unmarked door. No advertising and no photos are permitted. Now contrast that with the signs on the streets indicating the location of your local drug store. Tobacco is a definite health hazard and recognized as such but so is cannabis. Why treat them differently

 

[Kirkhill]

Good source. People that make money at a company with an agenda to demonize drug use.

For every source or article against, there's one, equally academic and sourced, for it. We can spend a month posting articles and counter articles.

I expect people here to be able to do their own research, separate wheat from chaff and draw their own educated conclusions. However, there's lots of people that are simply operating on their own bias as the base of their beliefs.

Sometimes it is based on direct observation of family members.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... Consider tobacco. Its use has been demonized for years to the extent that the product comes in a plain wrapped package and is stored behind an unmarked door. No advertising and no photos are permitted. Now contrast that with the signs on the streets indicating the location of your local drug store. Tobacco is a definite health hazard and recognized as such but so is cannabis. Why treat them differently

Interesting comparison - maybe it's just a matter of time? After all, tobacco sure had it's own heyday not all that long ago ....

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

. I've never witnessed someone jonesing for cannabis.

Yet for decades all I heard was "First thing I'll do when I get out is spark up a big fat doobie"....not "have a drink", " do a line", etc, so ones mileage may vary.

What's your point?

That no one is ever allowed to make a counter-point with you seems to be the common point.

But use a natural plant that people have used for thousands of years and your a pariah.

Over the top much??
Huh, I'll have to tell my best buddy while I'm getting him another Diet Mountain Dew to mix with his weed drink that he cant be my friend no more.

 

[OldSolduer]

Your last line is correct. I never stated otherwise. We saw it everyday at work, didn't we? How many people do you know that had a coffee course? So yeah, we had drug abusers and addicts in the CAF and worked with them daily. Let's not pretend that alcohol is the holiest of holies in the drug world and it's OK to have a beer or shot, but if the guy next to you has a joint, he's an out of control addict. How many do you know that eat handfuls of airborne smarties? Drug abuse right? Do we condemn that person? Nope, we grew up accepting it. He was cool. So it's OK. But use a natural plant that people have used for thousands of years and your a pariah.

Did I strike a nerve? Read my lines- chronic use of any intoxicating substance can lead to psychological and physical issues.

I include all intoxicating substances and not picking on marijuana. Personally I don’t use it.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Did I strike a nerve? Read my lines- chronic use of any intoxicating substance can lead to psychological and physical issues.

I include all intoxicating substances and not picking on marijuana. Personally I don’t use it.

Actually, no you didn't. I agree with you. I just find it a bit comical that drinkers feel they have some sort of moral high ground. Have a drink while condemning someone for using cannabis.
And no, I'm not pointing at you. You make good points, without being a jerk.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Sometimes it is based on direct observation of family members.

Been there and done that and more than most. There's more than one person here that has experience at it.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I dont know of anyone who smokes a J and get violent towards anything but a bag of Dorritos.

Now walk down town Halifax on a party night and see what alcohol does to people. Hell the Barenaked Ladies made a song about it, Hello City.