"Safe" Injection and "Reduced" Harm good for society? Don't think so

[ballz]

I found this article by Jen Gerson very interesting. She interviews Danielle Smith's Chief of Staff, a former drug addict, about Alberta's implementation of the Swiss model "Narcotics Transition Service" and provides some contrast to BC's experience with Safe Supply.

Q&A, Part 1: 'It’s the furtherance of a highly liberalized drug legalization agenda.'

In a recent video, Conservative leader Pierre Poilievre highlighted the drug crisis, in British Columbia. He suggested Alberta provided a solution. How different are the two provinces, really?

theline.substack.com

Q&A, Part 2: 'Our fatal overdose numbers have gone down dramatically off the peak.'

Alberta is pursuing a very different path toward treatment of drug addiction. In this interview, a top provincial official explains why, and what kind of help Ottawa can offer.

theline.substack.com

Alberta has seen some success while BC has only gotten worse.... and my understanding is that BC receives money from the Federal government to fund safe supply, but Alberta is not eligible for support because they aren't using safe supply, because politics.

 

[YZT580]

a close relative has been through the whole works with drugs. In his mind, it all starts with the legal grass. Making pot easy to get simply made it more likely that users would move on to other drugs. Think about your first cigarette. Either you stopped then or you went on to a pack or more per day. Nobody can control an addiction and physical habits like pot and tobacco are as mentally addictive as heroin is physically addictive. Those who say otherwise are simply lying to themselves. When it started there were going to be closely regulated now there is one on every corner like gas stations used to be.

 

[mariomike]

Making pot easy to get simply made it more likely that users would move on to other drugs.

 

[Furniture]

a close relative has been through the whole works with drugs. In his mind, it all starts with the legal grass. Making pot easy to get simply made it more likely that users would move on to other drugs. Think about your first cigarette. Either you stopped then or you went on to a pack or more per day. Nobody can control an addiction and physical habits like pot and tobacco are as mentally addictive as heroin is physically addictive. Those who say otherwise are simply lying to themselves. When it started there were going to be closely regulated now there is one on every corner like gas stations used to be.

I'm not sure that holds up to scrutiny. If someone was not already inclined to try illegal drugs, they wouldn't be pushed to it by going to a pot shop that looks like an Apple store. Do liquor stores cause people to try ecstasy?

It's far more likely that while pot was illegal, and you had to go to a dealer to get it, you'd be more likely to try something else your dealer had on hand as well. The whole "in for a penny, in for a pound" mentality. Legalizing pot makes it less likely that otherwise upstanding citizens would be exposed to the criminal underworld.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm not sure that holds up to scrutiny. If someone was not already inclined to try illegal drugs, they wouldn't be pushed to it by going to a pot shop that looks like an Apple store. Do liquor stores cause people to try ecstasy?

It's far more likely that while pot was illegal, and you had to go to a dealer to get it, you'd be more likely to try something else your dealer had on hand as well. The whole "in for a penny, in for a pound" mentality. Legalizing pot makes it less likely that otherwise upstanding citizens would be exposed to the criminal underworld.

Well....

Legal pot's buzz has been harshed, and alot of users are sticking with their dealers:

‘It’s Easier to Sell a Dream Than Reality’: Inside Canada’s Cannabis Crash​

Marijuana was set to be Canada’s next multi-billion-dollar industry. Four years post-legalization, stocks are down, production has stalled and the illegal market is thriving. How did we get weed so wrong?

Since Legalization Day, the Canadian Cannabis LP Index managed by New Cannabis Ventures has lost 88 per cent of its value. Roughly one third of the cannabis workforce has been wiped out since April 2020. And few companies are profitable. How did prognosticators get it all so wrong?

'It’s Easier to Sell a Dream Than Reality': Inside Canada's Cannabis Crash

Four years post-legalization, pot stocks are down, production has stalled and the illegal market is thriving. How did we get weed so wrong?

canadianbusiness.com

 

[Furniture]

Well....

Legal pot's buzz has been harshed, and alot of users are sticking with their dealers:

‘It’s Easier to Sell a Dream Than Reality’: Inside Canada’s Cannabis Crash​

Marijuana was set to be Canada’s next multi-billion-dollar industry. Four years post-legalization, stocks are down, production has stalled and the illegal market is thriving. How did we get weed so wrong?

Since Legalization Day, the Canadian Cannabis LP Index managed by New Cannabis Ventures has lost 88 per cent of its value. Roughly one third of the cannabis workforce has been wiped out since April 2020. And few companies are profitable. How did prognosticators get it all so wrong?

'It’s Easier to Sell a Dream Than Reality': Inside Canada's Cannabis Crash

Four years post-legalization, pot stocks are down, production has stalled and the illegal market is thriving. How did we get weed so wrong?

canadianbusiness.com

They were the ones going to dealers to begin with, people like me who only indulged after legalization were never part of the illegal system. Of course, it was obvious even back then that weed was never going to be the financial windfall the investors were predicting either...

The article laid out the problems with the way legalization was done here, but it still doesn't show how legalization made more junkies. People paying too much at the Tokyo Smoke down the street aren't buying bags of pills from Todd the Pusher in his '97 Civic.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I know in a perfect world, it could be possible to walk and chew gum at the same time, but we're not in a perfect world.

There's a constituency out there pushing for safe injection as part of a spectrum of ways to help people get off drugs and living productive lives. People who OD & die have zero chance to rehabilitate.

Problems include:

• each individual has to be ready to quit AND get into a better lifestyle (if people find it hard to quit smoking, how hard must it be to quit drugs?);
• no one road out of addiction will help everyone, or even a majority (thus creating mini-empires, like many other government-funded solutions to things); and
• services to help people climb out of addiction and into productivity have to be consistently available with enough space to handle people, often more than once (see 2 re: one reason why no single program has enough room to help enough people at any given time).

There's also a constituency saying "let 'em die, they made their choice" or "lock 'em all up." Well, at one level, reducing the client numbers does lessen the first-order problem, but as others have pointed out, who wants to tell a family "fuck 'em, they chose" when they may have been looking for help for some time and met with no room at the inn. Also, anybody know which would be more expensive: treatment or jail? In jail, inmates are supposed to receive programming, but I can guess how short of services institutions in general must be vs. need.

Gotta keep the general public safe, too, but that's another one where LOTS of stuff needs to be done at all levels (law enforcement, the courts, parole systems, etc.) to deal firmly & consistently with those who peddle the stuff. At the root, though, is how do you deal with the demand?

Like people who are radicalized, almost all addicts are trying to deal with what they see as a shitty situation. In some cases, it may be from bad choices, and in others, there may be problems with how the systems they deal with deal with them. Like with radicalization, how do you keep people from feeling that's the ONLY alternative? That's the source, and the hardest factor to pin one single solution to.

Bottom line: I feel for people people feeling unsafe due to the drug trade and behaviour of some addicts, I feel for addicts trying to dig themselves out but can't, but the solutions aren't simple because there's a lot of ground to cover.

That's an excellent post.

I guess where I am coming from is I don't want a portion of my earned wages going to these programs. To me these are charitable endeavors and should be left as such. The programs can live and die by the grace of donations.

We cant save everyone, and not everyone is going to be "successful or contribute" in their lives its just a fact and it always has been, just like war and violence its a condition of the human experience. The only ones I would be willing to help are the ones who walk forward and ask for help.

 

[Dana381]

Well....

Legal pot's buzz has been harshed, and alot of users are sticking with their dealers:

Fentanyl is changing that I believe. I know people who won't buy from unregulated sources because they are afraid of fentanyl. That includes illegal pot shops that are popping up. There is a native guy here that opened an illegal shop and he keeps getting shut down and re-opening.

Those people won't be inclined to move up to harder drugs at least until yhey are sold in legal licensed stores for the same reason.

 

[YZT580]

I'm not sure that holds up to scrutiny. If someone was not already inclined to try illegal drugs, they wouldn't be pushed to it by going to a pot shop that looks like an Apple store. Do liquor stores cause people to try ecstasy?

It's far more likely that while pot was illegal, and you had to go to a dealer to get it, you'd be more likely to try something else your dealer had on hand as well. The whole "in for a penny, in for a pound" mentality. Legalizing pot makes it less likely that otherwise upstanding citizens would be exposed to the criminal underworld.

Are you speaking from experience or from your own mindset? He (my relative) speaks from experience like 15 years of extreme hurt.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... To me these are charitable endeavors and should be left as such. The programs can live and die by the grace of donations.

Loads of room in the charitable sector to do this sort of work (which it's already doing). I guess the discussion tug of war comes when one asks "does helping the addicted return to useful contribution to society help just the individuals or society as a whole?", with many of those agreeing with the former saying it's up to them, and many of those agreeing with the latter saying the state should have some role.

We cant save everyone, and not everyone is going to be "successful or contribute" in their lives its just a fact and it always has been, just like war and violence its a condition of the human experience. The only ones I would be willing to help are the ones who walk forward and ask for help.

150% - but there's already people stepping up asking for help who can't get it. And that's zackly where this bit fits in ....

I suspect people would be less annoyed with safe injection sites if the government appeared to be doing anything else ...

 

[Halifax Tar]

Loads of room in the charitable sector to do this sort of work (which it's already doing). I guess the discussion tug of war comes when one asks "does helping the addicted return to useful contribution to society help just the individuals or society as a whole?", with many of those agreeing with the former saying it's up to them, and many of those agreeing with the latter saying the state should have some role.

150% - but there's already people stepping up asking for help who can't get it. And that's zackly where this bit fits in ....

If we reinstated institutionalization for this and the host of other mental disorders we have walking the streets right now that I'd be cool with that. You can use my taxes for that.

Addicts will recover when they actually want too. Some will never reach that point. Until that point though they're a burden on society. A resource parasite. And the question then becomes when does the burden become too much ?

I feel for people who are addicts, I really do. I know that's someone's loved one, and they were once innocent kids. But my feeling is we need to invest in those who are contributing. It's kind of like triage as I see it.

 

[KevinB]

Part of the issue is ‘the next thing’ which is the theory on gateway drugs. Smoking grass isn’t doing it for someone anymore, so they look to something else.

Part of the issue is usually many voters who don’t want certain things legalized are also the same folks who don’t want to spend money on treatment centers, social work or healthier options to ‘kill time’.

The other inarguable fact is when one barrier is lowered or removed, there is generally as cascade, so while legalization of marijuana was one act, it has tended to decrease (I base this base soley on news reports) the concern over other drugs in the population.

Short of ruthlessness eliminating both the supply and demand, I don’t see a solution, and I suspect a lot of folks won’t like that option anyway.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

If we reinstated institutionalization for this and the host of other mental disorders we have walking the streets right now that I'd be cool with that. You can use my taxes for that.

Addicts will recover when they actually want too. Some will never reach that point. Until that point though they're a burden on society. A resource parasite. And the question then becomes when does the burden become too much ?

I feel for people who are addicts, I really do. I know that's someone's loved one, and they were once innocent kids. But my feeling is we need to invest in those who are contributing. It's kind of like triage as I see it.

Agree 100%. I hate them tbh, they are all over the property at my work and are a danger to themselves and others.

We had one get slow rolled to death by one of our trains when they passed out on the tracks. The Engineer saw them and dumped the train in to emergency but they couldn't slow down in time and the person ended up getting sucked up in to the axles and shredded in to about 20 pieces. Not a great sight.

Part of the issue is ‘the next thing’ which is the theory on gateway drugs. Smoking grass isn’t doing it for someone anymore, so they look to something else.

Part of the issue is usually many voters who don’t want certain things legalized are also the same folks who don’t want to spend money on treatment centers, social work or healthier options to ‘kill time’.

The other inarguable fact is when one barrier is lowered or removed, there is generally as cascade, so while legalization of marijuana was one act, it has tended to decrease (I base this base soley on news reports) the concern over other drugs in the population.

Short of ruthlessness eliminating both the supply and demand, I don’t see a solution, and I suspect a lot of folks won’t like that option anyway.

The only real solution exists in places like Singapore:

As you say, people wouldn't like that option.

 

[KevinB]

@Humphrey Bogart Singapore is a wonderful place to visit, but they are draconian.

They have some (to me) crazy firearm laws, their Military (outside their SOF SMU) can’t even transport weapons without using (ironically) civilian armed guards. Spitting on the ground can result in being publicly whipped (note to those who dip, don’t do it in public…). It was really interesting when I was there doing training for their M110 Sniper Rifle adoption, their SMU rolled up in some sprinter vans loaded for bear, and their Infantry guys carefully loaded rifles into the equivalent of an HLVW and double checked serial number using three different people and two ancient guy with old revolvers showed up in their security car to do the escort. They didn’t even want me spitting dip on the grass at the ranges, for fear someone might complain and their train the trainer guy was going to get beaten.

That said, it’s a beautiful place, and wonderful hospitality, and absolutely mirrors my believes on dealing with the drug trade.

 

[mariomike]

We had one get slow rolled to death by one of our trains when they passed out on the tracks. The Engineer saw them and dumped the train in to emergency but they couldn't slow down in time and the person ended up getting sucked up in to the axles and shredded in to about 20 pieces. Not a great sight.

My father was a VIA Rail locomotive engineer. I think he was more concerned with hitting another train than "road-kill".
Mom and I had to visit him in the hospital for that.

I was in the cab with him when he hit a bunch of cows at high speed. He radioed ahead for a wash down. Seemed almost routine by that stage of his career.
I aksed if he ever heard anything official about it. He said, "No. I guess I got the farmer too."

As far as de-institutionalization and re-institutional, or something a little more radical, that is for others to decide.

The official city run injection sites came after my time. But, I'll never forget pulling skells ( Not a nice word. But, it was in common use at the time. ) out of the shooting galleries. If you've never been inside one, they are not easy to forget.

 

[Pelorus]

As lots of us are arguing on anecdotes instead of data, let me add my own:

Since the legalization of cannabis in Canada, I have noticed a marked decrease in the amount of alcohol misconduct (and outside of the workplace conduct issues in general) amongst subordinates. Speaking with some of the younger generation (both junior NCMs and junior officers), many of them strongly prefer consuming cannabis on the weekend by themselves or with friends rather than drinking. And the potheads are generally not the ones causing public intoxication or family violence files to arrive on the CO's desk.

People are going to find ways to blow off steam, especially if they have long work weeks exacerbated by their unit/trade/etc being at <75% PML. I'm no stranger to (sometimes excessive) alcohol consumption, almost certainly in part due to the RCN's drinking culture. The older I get, and having seen the legalization of cannabis settle out into a steady state, I'm increasingly convinced that alcohol is by far the more destructive of the two.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I was in the cab with him when he hit a bunch of cows at high speed. He radioed ahead for a wash down. Seemed almost routine by that stage of his career.
I aksed if he ever heard anything official about it. He said, "No. I guess I got the farmer too."

Guess they should have moooooved over eh?

 

[OldSolduer]

If we reinstated institutionalization for this and the host of other mental disorders we have walking the streets right now that I'd be cool with that. You can use my taxes for that.

I agree with that sentiment - in fact we are doing that already EXCEPT that they get stored in jail. And they usually aren't the middle class people in jail - guess what demographic makes up the majority of our population?

 

[The Bread Guy]

I agree with that sentiment - in fact we are doing that already EXCEPT that they get stored in jail. And they usually aren't the middle class people in jail - guess what demographic makes up the majority of our population?

And how much treatment are addicts getting for their addictions in jail compared to how much is needed there, right (happy to hear from corrections folks on this)? Then again, throwing more people in jail is something that can be done relatively quickly, easily and visibly, whereas other solutions may be less concrete and (to the right demographic) sexy.

Found this as a meme-ish explanation of how rooting out addiction and its destructive side effects (individual and societal) is so hard ...

 

[Halifax Tar]

And how much treatment are addicts getting for their addictions in jail compared to how much is needed there, right (happy to hear from corrections folks on this)? Then again, throwing more people in jail is something that can be done relatively quickly, easily and visibly, whereas other solutions may be less concrete and (to the right demographic) sexy.

Found this as a meme-ish explanation of how rooting out addiction and its destructive side effects (individual and societal) is so hard ...
View attachment 78947

I think this is where we F'd up decades ago when we moved away from mental institutions.

Create a secure space, for them and the public, where they can get the help they need, and get them off the streets at the same time.