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Role of Officer vs job of NCM [Merged]

  • Thread starter Thread starter Argyll 2347
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Inch said:
Also, engineering degrees cannot be done in 3 years (any engineer types want to back me up on this?), maybe general arts degrees, but most science degrees are 4 years.

True.  Engineering degrees, at least at the UofA, require 6 courses per semester (sometimes 7, but the seventh is always an hour a week lecture with two assignments).  I know several people who dropped down to 5 courses/semester to finish in 5 years, at the same course load as everbody else (including specialization science degrees, I'm not sure about honours).  Engineering degrees at all Canadian schools are fairly strictly controlled by the accredidation board, so other schools might have a slightly different setup, but it works out about the same. 

George Wallace said:
By the way, what Corporation in the world recruits its' CEO's directly out of High School?  Then why should we?

Comparing CEO's to junior officers is a little unfair.  Corporations routinely recruit junior level managers (or manager trainees) out of University.


Infanteer:  I'm assuming your idea is geared strictly towards combat arms officers?  How should other officers be recruited, just the same as they are now, or do you have any ideas for an advancement of them? 
 
Some people here have commented on the need, or lack thereof, for degrees amongst Army officers. When I commissioned, I did so under the old OCTP propgram, which basically required you to have completed high school, period. I didn't see any need for anything more, and neither did most of my peers who were OCTP or UTPNCM or CFR. When, in the late 90's, the goal posts were moved by the requirement for an all-degreed officer corps, I was furious. I felt that I had been tricked: nobody ever told us non-degreed guys that we were going to become second-class citizens. I went so far as to write to the Director of Military Careers. I never got an answer from them, but around about that time I had a new experience. I was the Canadian student at the USMC staff college in Quantico. All the US officers there (from all five services) had degrees (mostly from civilian universities). They assumed that all officers did, and were very surprised to discover I had only high school. The course was run like a graduate program, and during the year I began to realize that I liked this learning thing. Not only that, but clearly the armed forces of the world's most powerful nation thought this degree thing was pretty important too. The Marines in particular were very big on education: they stressed the study of military history, and the Commandant of the Corps published a Reading List that officers were expected to complete. A post graduate course, the School of Advanced Warfighting, was also run there, just like any post graduate course: all self-paced study, discussion groups and papers.

Anyway, the point is that I came to view education for officers differently. When I got back to Canada, I applied for the UTPO and was accepted. Now that I have a degree, I see the true value of the post-secondary education. It does not teach you how to do an estimate or plan an attack or write a PER better: that is what your purely military training is for. And, it really isn't the "stuff" you learn in University that matters. (I've probably forgotten most of it...) What PSE does, in my opinion, is broaden the mind, teach you to study deeply and in detail, to reason and to understand the arguments and views of others, and to express your views clearly, supporting them with reasoned arguments. It does not teach you "what" to think, it helps you discover "how" to think.

  Just as an example, we spent much of the first term at Quantico studying the Peloponnesian War of the ancient Greeks. Does that sound like a waste of time? Well, it wasn't: it was a perfect example of the formulation of national strategy and its execution through a series of campaigns and political struggles. Very relevant to today, despite all the changes in technology. People, war, strategy and leadership have not changed much, so the detailed study of military history, politics and psychology all have value.


Now, is all of that any good in running a rifle platoon? Maybe not. But, remember this: the officer is intended to go on to bigger things, where these skills and this understanding of history and people are vitally important. Do we really want the higher command and staff positions in our Army filled by people who don't have these skills, or who think learning is "stupid" or "a waste of time"? Anti-intellectualism is not the mark of a healthy officer corps, in my opinion.

Does educating our officer corps (or our NCOs/WOs, for that matter) cost too much? If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

The US Army, in its post mortem on its troubles in Vietnam, identified the need for an officer corps that was much more broadly educated, especially in the humanities. They felt that a too-narrow technical specialization (with an emphasis on Engineering) was not productive of the flexible, agile mind needed to fight an unconventional enemy on a modern battlefield. Neither they, nor the Marines, have ever looked back.

Nor should we. Cheers.
 
But, just think, today you would not be accepted and well, it seems to have turned out all right.
Bruce
 
Hey Fellas,

I have been occasionally "lurking" here for the better part of a year, based on my previous distaste for the rampant immaturity that characterized this board.  I am "coming out" as it were, because many of the established members here have done a very credible (and commendable) job of cleaning up the site over the past 6 months or so.  Not that my personal input matters a whit to the proceedings, I am simply saying that I now feel comfortable rejoining what I perceive to be a wholly rejeuvenated and much more mature discussion forum.

I will keep my first "post-hiatus" input brief, as there is plenty of time to weigh in on various topics as things unfold.  In regards to this specific topic, I must first and foremost express my complete agreement with Michael O'Leary's comments.  He has hit the nail firmly on the head as far as my own personal experience is concerned.  Grade 12, OCTP entry into the Reg F following 6 years as a Res F NCM (Sgt, C Scot R), followed by 17 years of commissioned service in the PPCLI.  At the end of the day, there is no "recipe" for the ideal officer.  I have seen all types come and go over the past 23 years, from all entry programs, all levels of formal (and informal) education, previous NCM service, etc, etc.  At the end of the day, it is the individual qualities of the person which determine success in the commissioned ranks.  "Success" is not a function of approval granted by an officer's subordinates, but any officer would be an utter fool to think that the latter is not terribly important.  Doing the "right thing" by the troops within the constraints imposed by the over-arcing mission and operational context is of the utmost importance.  Does an officer need to have first "marched a mile in the Pte's boots" to understand what it is that their orders entail?  I think not.  Particularly when the officer is a combat arms type who spends his year of classification training being treated like a soldier under the tutelage of Sr NCOs, and then goes on to serve his/her formative years living cheek to jowl with the soldiers that he/she commands from a very junior position.  It has been said before, and it is true - officers and NCOs have different roles.  Success in one aspect of the proffession does not imply success in the other.  Indeed, I have seen more UTPNCM graduates fall flat on their faces as officers than the reverse.  It is a question of perspective and mindset.

As regards the importance of post-secondary education?  PBI - I have the distinct impression that you have been around a long time, and know your stuff.  However, on the matter of "higher learning" I must heartily disagree.  It may be a "nice to have", but the ability to perform in an institution of higher learning is not a quantifiable measure nor an indicator of performance in the commissioned ranks.  The "education debate" has raged for years, and notwithstanding current policies both sides remain firmly entrenched in their beliefs.  We won't resolve anything by re-hashing the various pros and cons of a system which has now embedded post-secondary educational requirements (along with bilingualism) into enrollment and rank-progression requirements.  Suffice it to say that while I respect your personal "eye opening" as a result of PSE, I seriously resent the very system and people who have forced higher ACADEMIC education down the throats of those who joined under different circumstances and have done just fine in what was formerly, a purely performance and potenial-based competitive environment.  As a result of the "shifting goalposts", there are many serving officers who have been marginalized and penalized by adoption of the "degreed officer corps".  Yes, the dinosaurs will eventually die off, but I have no doubt that there was great value in having a mix of officer enrollment programs.  OCTP, DEO, ROTP - they all had their place within the enrollment "melange", and all contributed something to the overall mix.  I don't say this a disgruntled OCTP type 2 years away from my voluntary release at the end of my IE.  I have zero regrets.  All I am saying is that by insisting on a degreed officer corps, the institution has deliberately deprived itself of a wealth of potential recruitment material at the very time when we need it the most.  Furthermore, by placing additional hurdles in front of currently serving officers at the recommendation of "academics" such as Dr Granatstein", we are simply promoting the ongoing exodus of talent as serving members opt to get out of a profession where the goal-posts are ever-shifting.

Just some random thoughts, from someone who has been serving for 23 years on all sides of the fence in question - Reserve/Regular/Non-Commissioned/Commissioned.....

Cheers,

Mark C 
 
Welcome back Mark. As a serving Infantry officer and from what I gather from those here and your posts here and on other boards you are well thought of and highly respected. Your opinion does matter.
 
I'm an NCM in the reserve, and I'm also studying Engineering at the U of A (Going into my fourth year, which I'm splitting into 2 years so I have more free time for army and setting up my own business). Some people in my unit keep on telling me I should be an officer, because I will be getting that piece of paper.

Anyways, on the "degree for an officer" issue, I'd like to suggest what myself and good buddy of mine have come up with. We call it the "Door Differential Model".

WAY too often at University, while heading between classes and buildings, we notice that people will line up behind a single open door, and wait to go through it. This will be in places where there are sets of multiple double doors, the rest of which will remain closed because people lack initiative. (This also applies for people waiting for other people to leave through one door before they enter it, simply because it's open. Our solution, we go and open the other half of the double-door for ourselves)

Where I'm heading with this is that people, even in University, often don't have the initiative to open a door for themselves, and will rather follow the pack. Both metaphorically, and literally. It's a sub-concious thing, but some people have the initiative, and most people don't.
 
Mark C,
Welcome back sir, look forward to seeing some more posts from you.

Two Points:

1)  I will admit now that some of the criticism's of my proposal from RCA, Michael O'Leary, and Mark C that I have changed my viewpoint.  I can see that having a variety of entrance means is desirable to bring in a variety of people.  As well, as Michael has stated, no entrance program has a monopoly on the upper end of the bell curve.  I see that how we choose to train and manage the careers of our Officers in peacetime is higher on the priority scale then making all serve time in the ranks.

2) I can also see that the education issue is as contentious as the "time in ranks" one (which I wouldn't have thought).  I maintain my position as a proper education is an essential foundation to the strength of the Military Profession.
 
Mark C: Thanks for your answer. I am not so sure that you and I are as far apart on this issue as you may think. However, a couple of specific points:

"It may be a "nice to have", but the ability to perform in an institution of higher learning is not a quantifiable measure nor an indicator of performance in the commissioned ranks."


I agree, as far as the statement goes, but that wasn't really what I was trying to say(maybe I didn't learn those skills after all...). Remember, my OCTP peers and I thought we were pretty damned good and dedicated before the goalposts moved. What I mean to say is that the skills imparted in the pursuit of higher education are vital to those officers who progress beyond company level duty, patricularly those whose work affects and influences all of us, such as staff officers and commanders at higher HQs. I cannot understand how they could not be vital. I am willing to accept that individuals may develop these skills on their own (for example, I enjoyed reading military history long before I ever went to Quantico...) but I doubt that most would ever develop them in as timely and comprehensive a manner as PSE does. I will agree with you 100% that just having good marks from university does not make a good officer: as an OCTP and former WO I watched various DEO clowns with disgust as they blundered through phase training. Now, I usualy swallowed my feelings and tried to help them, but I bitterly resented the idea that anybody would assume they were better just because they had letters after their names

"Yes, the dinosaurs will eventually die off, but I have no doubt that there was great value in having a mix of officer enrollment programs.  OCTP, DEO, ROTP - they all had their place within the enrollment "melange", and all contributed something to the overall mix. "

Agreed, and I see absolutely no reason to do away with any of these programs, for the very reason you state. The US Army, for example, gets only about 25% of its officers from West Point. The rest come from civilian universities (ROTC) or are commissioned from the ranks ("Mustangs"). The first two groups already have degrees on arrival. The third group is not left out: the Army educates them to the same level. Thus the playing field is levelled. This is what I believe we should do, as well. Could we afford to put every non-degreed officer through PSE? Maybe, maybe not. Depends how we tackled it. What we certainly could do is identify those who have the proven performance and the strong potential to be worth the investment, then "git'em some larnin'"

"we are simply promoting the ongoing exodus of talent as serving members opt to get out of a profession where the goal-posts are ever-shifting."

OK-now here we differ, big time. Show me one profession worthy of the name which is able to resist change, and which does not have to move its goalposts, change its demands, or alter its procedures, to stay up with the world it must serve. Certainly not the military. We change course content, we change TTPs, we change organization and doctrine. We study other armies and learn from them (or we're supposed to, anyway...). We change the way we develop officers and NCOs. (And we screw things up, sometimes, too)  If we stand still we will be history before we know it. I believe that if we pursue the PSE goal properly, we would not produce the result you warn against: quite the opposite. We would improve the calibre and skill sets of the people we have. Using PSE as a means to drive people out, as I originally perceived it to be, is wrong and wasteful.

We cannot turn the Army into a "free degree" club, but we can't allow it to miss out on the valuable skills that PSE brings, either. Cheers.


 
I would like to think that higher education is a lens, one which focuses innate abilities for thought, reasoning, and expression. The lens of PSE helps the individual recognize and develop those capabilities, perhaps accelerating what they would likely accomplish on their own within a supportive learning environment. Without the lens those attributes still exist, but may take longer to manifest themselves, or simply never have cause to do so if the spark of encouragement or desire never occurs. And like any optical lens, if the 'source' isn't bright enough to start with, the lens will have little effect against the background.

As has been stated, some officers got caught out when the goalposts moved. While the potential benefits of PSE are recognized (I say potential because some never live up to the touted benefits of higher education anyway), no attempt has been made to allow the identification of those attributes in individuals with or without PSE. One is taken to presume the other, and it hardly needs reiteration to state that education doesn't necessarily equal intelligence.

Some corps have had a very hard time accepting the shift to a degreed officer corps. At times officers with advanced degrees in technical areas were banished to technical postings, never to be seen in a command appointment again. Others were warned at times that they were in danger of being branded â Å“an intellectual,â ? the inference being that it was a career-ending pronouncement. It's just too complicated a world to be picking leaders based solely on a snake-eating and arm-wrestling scale, it's early days for this change and the pendulum is still swinging.

The current approach is one solution to the bigger problem of ensuring a credible officer corps ready to produce the thinkers it needs at all levels. Is it a perfect solution; probably not, but the alternatives also have risks and management problems, in both bureaucratic and institutional senses.
 
Hi,

I've recently completed my BMQ as an NCM in the Reserves. (Infantry in the Royal Montreal Regiment.) Anyways, I've changed my mind about being an NCM and would like to a Reserve Officer. How easy/hard will this be to do? There are currently some Officer posts available at my unit according to the 34e Brigade website. Assuming my unit really has these posts opened, is it possible to switch to an Officer in the same trade? What do I need to do? Any recommendations?

Furthermore, does anyone know exactly how many weekends a month the SQ lasts? During the winter I am leaving for a humanitarian project for two weeks in the middle of January, would it still be possible to complete my SQ or is winter time really loaded? If I cannot do my SQ during winter, do I lose my financial benefits for education? (The 50% refund of school fees.)

Thanks!
 
Cool me too.

Belley here. Who's this? :D

Glad I didn't go to concentration. :o

 
Pte Gagnon.  Glad i didnt go to concentration either... I dont think "general duties" are much fun.  :o
 
Fearan said:
Hi,

I've recently completed my BMQ as an NCM in the Reserves. (Infantry in the Royal Montreal Regiment.) Anyways, I've changed my mind about being an NCM and would like to a Reserve Officer. How easy/hard will this be to do? There are currently some Officer posts available at my unit according to the 34e Brigade website. Assuming my unit really has these posts opened, is it possible to switch to an Officer in the same trade? What do I need to do? Any recommendations?

Furthermore, does anyone know exactly how many weekends a month the SQ lasts? During the winter I am leaving for a humanitarian project for two weeks in the middle of January, would it still be possible to complete my SQ or is winter time really loaded? If I cannot do my SQ during winter, do I lose my financial benefits for education? (The 50% refund of school fees.)

Thanks!

It may be best to ask your question about your SQ course to other NCM's or officers at your unit.  But for the reserves, in order to be an officer, I'm pretty sure you must already have a degree or in the process of getting one.
 
Best to go through your Chain-of-Command, as I am sure they are best suited to deal with all your specific questions.
 
OK, to be an officer, you need the following:

1. Either completed or
2. in process of completing a university degree or college diploma.

NOTE: There are officers without degrees/diplomas, but they've been asked to CFR (commission from the ranks) because of time-in and experience.

So, if you qualify, here's what you do:

1. Go up the chain of cmd, starting with your sct cmdr -- who will then likely pass you to the Plt Cmdr, and then the Company 2IC and then Company OC, etc.

2. You will have to write a memo starting your desire to commission and why you qualify

3. Seek assistance from your unit rcrtng offr on the process

You will have to go through a series of interviews, including an offr board.

Also, don't worry about SQ. If you commission as an offr, they will waive the BOTP course, and you will start at the a 1-week leadership course and then do CAP-R and then Phase III. These courses are normally offered during the summer at Gagetown.

Check out the www.sentex.net/argylls for more info on offr positions and the recruitment process.
 
combat_medic said:
Food for thought; you take a 20 year old corporal and give him some leadership training... are you going to throw him in the Pl WO position right away? No, first he's 2IC of a section, hopefully under an experienced MCpl or Sgt, let him teach a basic course as a 2IC, give him a year or two of experience and after a year or two, eventually he gets command of a section.

Now, take the same 20 year old and give him a degree. He (in theory) completes his phase training in under a year and is a 2Lt. What do we do to him? Make him a Platoon Commander. No 2IC position, no one to mentor under, and he's going to make all his mistakes in full view of the Platoon. He's still trying to figure out the soldiering business, let alone being a leader and a commander and will, understandably be still trying to find his feet. Would you make a new private with a year in a section commander? Then why would you make a new officer with a year in a Platoon Commander?
You would not give the 20 yr old Pte a Sr NCO with 20 yrs experience as his coach either (but that is what a 23 yr old Pl Comd gets in his Pl WO).
 
But the Pl Comd is in a senior position to the Pl WO, and is 'supposed' to be the one making the decisions. While he may ask advice from the Pl WO, he is the one in command, and that puts him in an unusual position. He is commanding a large number of troops, the majority of whom will have more TI than himself. He is under no requirement to take advice, or to agree with the Pl WO, and he gets the final word. If he's smart, he'll listen to those with more experience, but he could equally choose to be stubborn and get his platoon lost bush whacking for a day or two rather than admitting he's lost and can't read a map.

If you put him in a formalized position with someone senior to himself, where he's REQUIRED to take the advice he's given, and isn't immediately given a command he's not prepared for, it could solve a lot of these problems.
 
officer is a good job if youre into admin

you will go through royal military college and have a well rounded education

id still recomend going through the ranks just because u learn more and see what the engineers are all about

you can start when you are 16 in the reserves. it lets you see what the army is about and lets you study while in the army.
 
That arrangement forces the officer to think & prepairs him for the responsibility of higher command.  Even the UTPNCM Cpl would, after commissioning, still be less experienced than the WO.  The Pl Comd also has someone senior that he has to listen to (we call that guy the OC).  If the Pl Comd does not listen to his WO & does step on himself, then he will have to answer to the OC.  If a Pl Comd cannot learn to take the advise of his Sr NCOs, then he will fail as an officer.  Every officer in a command job has a Sr NCO to advise him.

. . . and what better time to instill an appreciation for the advise of the experienced then when the Pl Comd really has none of his own.
 
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