Role of Officer vs job of NCM [Merged]

[gatz]

I've known several university students who have received a commission while completing their studies. They received their commission after Common Army Phase training (CAP) and before their occupational training.

Hmm, that's very interesting, but it seems very unorthodox compared to what I've been told my several people. I wonder if there is anyone who can verify this? Needless to say it would make a very large impact on my decision

 

[xFusilier]

Firstly a disclaimer here - I'm not a G1 guy, but I am involved in the individual training system and have been in the Reserve Army for the past 20 years

Reserve Army Officers that enroll with a university degree are enrolled at 2Lt.

Those that do not have a degree but are enrolled in a post secondary program of study are enrolled as OCdt's.  They are promoted 2Lt upon completion of Basic Military Officer Qualification (Land), which was previously known as Common Army Phase.  Once these ladies and gentlemen have completed their classification training  (as per the Res Career profile for their classification) they are promotable to Lt.  For example for Reserve Army Infantry Officers, eligibility for promotion to 2Lt comes upon completion of BMOQ(L) and eligibility for promotion to Lt comes upon completion of DP1 Infantry Dismounted Platoon Commander.

 

[MMSS]

Firstly a disclaimer here - I'm not a G1 guy, but I am involved in the individual training system and have been in the Reserve Army for the past 20 years

Reserve Army Officers that enroll with a university degree are enrolled at 2Lt.

Those that do not have a degree but are enrolled in a post secondary program of study are enrolled as OCdt's.  They are promoted 2Lt upon completion of Basic Military Officer Qualification (Land), which was previously known as Common Army Phase.  Once these ladies and gentlemen have completed their classification training  (as per the Res Career profile for their classification) they are promotable to Lt.  For example for Reserve Army Infantry Officers, eligibility for promotion to 2Lt comes upon completion of BMOQ(L) and eligibility for promotion to Lt comes upon completion of DP1 Infantry Dismounted Platoon Commander.

I'm curious (purely academic, since I both have a degree and am applying to the Reg force). What happens if a member enrolls during their program as a OCdt but does not graduate? Are they penalized in any way? I suppose I am wondering if a loophole exists where someone could enroll as a student in order to join as an OCdt and then drop out.

 

[xFusilier]

Under the Reserve Entry Scheme Officer - you are not eligible to enlist unless you are in the first year of a degree granting program and they must maintain their enrollment until they have completed their classification training.  This will take at least until their second year of training.  I would advise you against perceiving this entry plan as a loophole to a commission.  I have mentored a number of these young gentlemen as a Platoon Second in Command and the challenges of School, Physical and Mental Preparation for Phase Trg,  maintaining Academic standing at university and undertaking Regimental Duties means that you will find yourself quite busy.

 

[MMSS]

Under the Reserve Entry Scheme Officer - you are not eligible to enlist unless you are in the first year of a degree granting program and they must maintain their enrollment until they have completed their classification training.  This will take at least until their second year of training.  I would advise you against perceiving this entry plan as a loophole to a commission.  I have mentored a number of these young gentlemen as a Platoon Second in Command and the challenges of School, Physical and Mental Preparation for Phase Trg,  maintaining Academic standing at university and undertaking Regimental Duties means that you will find yourself quite busy.

I never said that the applicants in this plan are exploiting it; nor am I (as stated, I already have a degree.) I was just curious as I am sure that I am not the only who has seen that and expect that there must be a provision somewhere that deals with the hypothetical case.

 

[brihard]

Gatz-

I'm a reserve infantry NCM, and I've got enough time in tha tI feel comfortable fielding this.

I gather that you are coming on close to the end of your first or second year of school. What has not yet been addressed is the training necessary to become functional in your trade/classification.

Reserve infantry NCMs require three months of training to be usable in trade- Basic Military Qualification, which is often done part time on weekends over about every second weekend for five months or so. Then there's two months of usually full time training- currently BMQ-LAnd, and DP1 Infantry, thoguh both are soon to be merged in our trade into one two month course. Anyway, end state, you get in, you can be qualfied in trade by the end of the next summer.

The path for officers is longer. Quite a lot longer. Your odds of being trained up to the level in your classification where you could be put in command of soldiers before you graduate is slim- and you said you then intend to go DEO.

As for the university workload- in my unit university students are the norm rather than the exception. In my section I've got everything from criminology students to a first year aerospace engineer. My first two years commanding a section I was a full time student. I've known guys doing most kinds of engineering and the hard sciences. The workload can suck, but it's doable depending on your motivation. It should not vary substantially between NCM versus officer. I cannot speak to the demographic breakdown where you are and whether being a university student in the ranks would be unusual- but I'd be surprised if it were, even if my regiment is pretty far over on the education bell curve.

In sum- as an NCM you've a much better chance of getting a 'usable' year out of the reserves where you go out and train in trade. And an appreciation of life in the junior ranks will never hurt anyone in terms of depth of perspective. Plus it's fun, and you'll certainly inure yourself to physical hardship.

As an officer, you may be able to get trained as an officer by the time you graduate- but then you hope to immediately DEO. The benefit is you have at least a portion of officer training already done, but balance that against a lot of time as an officer cadet who will not command troops.

Your call- and I have an inherent bias in this based on where I come from, but I've tried to present the info honestly. For what it's worth if you were just starting school I'd have probably recommended you go officer as you're already certain that that is your desired end state. The real clincher for me on this is the remaining summers you have to train.

 

[gatz]

It seems to me that the ideal path would be NCM, as I will get a more "full" military experience for the 2 or so years I am in reserves. You mention you were a full time student when commanding a platoon, yet you are an NCM. You were promoted while still in school? I think the max I can reach is corporal given the time frame (not that advancement though the ranks is really a priority at all). My main concern is I have something to take away from the experience that will be beneficial towards my career, and if I'm not going to truly be an officer until I graduate (and leave reserves), then I should do the NCM thing to get my feet wet. Does this sound reasonable to you? I don't mind if you're biased, it's ok to try and sell me on it  . Thank you for the helpful reply!

 

[PJGary]

It seems to me that the ideal path would be NCM, as I will get a more "full" military experience for the 2 or so years I am in reserves. You mention you were a full time student when commanding a platoon, yet you are an NCM. You were promoted while still in school? I think the max I can reach is corporal given the time frame (not that advancement though the ranks is really a priority at all). My main concern is I have something to take away from the experience that will be beneficial towards my career, and if I'm not going to truly be an officer until I graduate (and leave reserves), then I should do the NCM thing to get my feet wet. Does this sound reasonable to you? I don't mind if you're biased, it's ok to try and see me on it  . Thank you for the helpful reply!

He said commanding a section;

Fireteam = (usually) 2x soldier

Section = 4x Fireteam (Comd. is (usually) a Sgt.)

Platoon = 3x Section + Platoon HQ (Comd., 2 I/C, Signaller, Heavy weapons det.) Comd. is usually a 2lt. up to a Capt.

I would like to echo that there are a TON of NCMs in the reserves (and the reg force) who have or are completing degrees. And sometimes not just Bachelor's degrees either.

In my humble opinion, I think you should join as an NCM, not only for the reasons stated but also because (as outined above) there are a lot of positions in an infantry platoon with very different jobs, there is ONE officer. Going in as an NCM gives you the opportunity to perfect or at least get some experience in the section level skills and tasks and will only help you if you decide to become an officer later. Also, there are lots of low level leadership positions in a platoon that are NCM run, so you may get leadership experience out of it as well.

Hope this helps

 

[gatz]

Thank you for all the fantastic replies. I spoke with my recruiting officer earlier today and have entered as an infantry NCM. I am very excited to get started, and I hope this thread can help out others in a similar situation in the future 

 

[Pte. Jay]

I've been reading around this forum, and I've been reading some things about directly becoming an NCO rather than being commissioned (for officer candidates). I have a few questions about this:

1) Is this even true?

*If it is:*

2) What are the pros and cons of becoming an NCO instead of an officer?

3) Do you have the chance to be commissioned from the ranks later on in your career?

4) What rank do you start off at?

 

[MikeL]

You can join as a NCM / Private(Recruit),  you don't join as a NCO.  Or as a Officer Cadet if you join as a Officer.


Search;  these questions have been asked/answered before.

 

[the 48th regulator]

No, JaYB


You have not searched, not one iota, of our threads, to find your answer!!!  You are not truthful, in fact, full of shyte.

I catch you making more useless, Bandwith wasting posts, I will personally whack yer ass, like a Walking Dead, from the show that will start in 5 minutes.

I would like to apologize for the ignorance I have been displaying for these past few days. My name has changed, and so has my behavior. Believe me when I tell you, it was not on purpose. I promise you that from this point on, I'll talk only about topics I have a thorough knowledge of and I will not state facts about things without first being sure of said facts. I really hope that you guys can forgive me for this, and we can move past this, as this forum is a small community and I would like to have the respect of each and every one of you. 

Regards,
      Jay B.

Stick your apology, and my personal favourite video!!

Dude, if you can piss off the Jolly Moderator, imagine what your posts do to the others, Seriously!!

dileas

tess

milnet.ca staff

 

[brihard]

I've been reading around this forum, and I've been reading some things about directly becoming an NCO rather than being commissioned (for officer candidates). I have a few questions about this:

Very unlikely. Had you read anything anywhere about directly becoming an NCO, guaranteed there would have been a dozen posters calling that individual out quite quickly.

There is no easy in. You either start at the bottom as a recruit in the officer path (OCdt or 2Lt), or you start at the bottom as a private recruit. You sure as hell do not get to immediately jump to the earned NCO ranks. Even where you may enter as a corporal once fully trained (e.g., MP) are not a matter of 'directly' becoming anything. It all remains earned.

Your bigest concern will be simply getting in, and then being the very best soldier you can and then hoping you are deemed fit for advancement into positions of responsibility above and beyond your own individual duties. That will be a very long way off.

 

[WhySoSerious]

Just a few questions.

- The RMC site says that "The mission of the Royal Military College Saint-Jean is to integrate, educate and develop its officer cadets by means of its academic, leadership sports and bilingualism programmes. So they can be successful as commissioned officers in the Canadian Armed Forces."
Well, what if you wanted to go to RMC but you're taking a job as an NCM, not an Officer. Is it only for Officers? Or are NCM allowed in as well?

- Would we be allowed to have our belongings over (Laptop, phone) on campus? Would I have time to get them shipped? Or would I have to do it earlier, like after AIT?

- Is this like any normal University? Would we have free time to just chill out? Or would it be class, drills, training, sleep? For example: Would there be people playing PS3 or whatever during their own time? (Not planning on it.. Just an example)

- The transition from After AIT to after RMC... What would happen? How long will it to be to go from AIT to RMC? And where would people stay? The barracks? Or will housing be available to them during this time?

- Btw, if anyone knows.. When exactly is the time to live in a CFB house? Exactly after RMC?

Thank you.

I know it's a lot of questions. But, I'm currently not in Canada, and Google isn't being very helpful with these specific questions. I've also emailed some recruitment offices, but they never reply back..

 

[Kat Stevens]

RMC is an officer hatchery.

 

[WhySoSerious]

So NCM's do not get a paid education?

 

[MikeL]

FYI "Non-commissioners" is a term you made up, it is not term that is in use with the CAF.

Just a few questions.

- The RMC site says that "The mission of the Royal Military College Saint-Jean is to integrate, educate and develop its officer cadets by means of its academic, leadership sports and bilingualism programmes. So they can be successful as commissioned officers in the Canadian Armed Forces."
Well, what if you wanted to go to RMC but you're taking a job as an NCM, not an Officer. Is it only for Officers? Or are NCM allowed in as well?

Attending RMC for university on enrollment into the Canadian Forces is for Officers, not NCMs.

- Would we be allowed to have our belongings over (Laptop, phone) on campus? Would I have time to get them shipped? Or would I have to do it earlier, like after AIT?

AIT is US Army, the Canadian equiv is DP1/QL3.  As for the RMC policy about computers, phones, etc I'm not sure of the rules, but I've seen it mentioned before in RMC thread.  As for electronics during DP1/QL3 training, the is dependent on the school's policy, it may be locked up during the week, or you might be able to have it all week. Also, don't expect to be able to carry a cell phone on you during the working day on course. 

- Is this like any normal University? Would we have free time to just chill out? Or would it be class, drills, training, sleep? For example: Would there be people playing PS3 or whatever during their own time? (Not planning on it.. Just an example)

There is more to RMC then just your classes. Have a read through the RMC threads, all of the answers for your questions are there.

- The transition from After AIT to after RMC... What would happen? How long will it to be to go from AIT to RMC? And where would people stay? The barracks? Or will housing be available to them during this time?

The whole going from RMC to DP1(what you call AIT) is moot, as NCMs wouldn't go to RMC as part of their initial training. As for accomendations for RMC students, AFAIK they all live in a dorm style barracks - the RMC threads can shed more light on this.

- Btw, if anyone knows.. When exactly is the time to live in a CFB house? Exactly after RMC?

CFB house? Like the houses families can live in on a base? Those are called PMQs and depending on your trade training/school policy, single/married, and what is available you may be able to live at a PMQ while attending DP1, but for most members they live in barracks during their time in the training system.

Once you get out of the training system and posted, you will be able to apply for a PMQ.

 

[MikeL]

So NCM's do not get a paid education?

Look into NCM-SEP; it is available for some trades.

There are other options available to NCMs as well, but NCM-SEP is the only program available as a entry method AFAIK.

 

[WhySoSerious]

When would I ask and tell my recruiters about applying for NCM-SEP?

 

[MikeL]

When would I ask and tell my recruiters about applying for NCM-SEP?

Do you think it would be best to ask about NCM-SEP at the start of the recruiting process, or near the end?  Ask about it when you have your first contact with the CFRC; I'm not sure if there is any mention or not of NCM-SEP on the application?

http://www.forces.ca/en/page/paideducation-96#college-2