RMC Officer Sues to Avoid Saluting, Toasting Queen?

[Kat Stevens]

I don't have any feelings for the Queen myself, well, any good ones. She's just a figurehead for tradition for Canada and has been the center of debate for years whether Canada should sever the ties with the Monarchy.

Since she represents Canada I'd salute her, but not because she's part of the Royal Family as they should have no bearing in Canada, except as foriegn officers and the like. If push came to shove she has no say over the Canadian Miltary as it now stands (from what I understand, has no real political power at all), and that's all that matters to me.

I guess that's another choice you'll have to make before you sign the line, then.  She in fact DOES have a pretty high position in the food chain, and if you can't, in good conscience, swear true allegiance to that position, I guess you may as well not waste the recruiters ink.

 

[tomahawk6]

So why hasnt this officer been dismissed from the service ?

 

[aesop081]

I don't have any feelings for the Queen myself, well, any good ones. She's just a figurehead for tradition for Canada and has been the center of debate for years whether Canada should sever the ties with the Monarchy.

Since she represents Canada I'd salute her, but not because she's part of the Royal Family as they should have no bearing in Canada, except as foriegn officers and the like. If push came to shove she has no say over the Canadian Miltary as it now stands (from what I understand, has no real political power at all), and that's all that matters to me.

The Queen, through the Governor General, has real power in Canadian Politics.

http://www.gg.ca/gg/rr/01/index_e.asp

Canada's Parliament consists of three parts: the Crown represented by the Governor General, an appointed Senate and an elected House of Commons. One of the Governor General's most important responsibilities is to ensure that Canada always has a Prime Minister. The Governor General also gives Royal Assent to bills passed by the House of Commons and the Senate, reads the Speech from the Throne, signs State documents, summons, opens and ends sessions of Parliament, and dissolves Parliament for an election. The Governor General also presides over the swearing-in of the Prime Minister, the Chief Justice of Canada and cabinet ministers.

The Governor General almost always acts on the advice of the prime minister, but has the right to be consulted, to encourage, to warn, and to meet regularly with the Prime Minister and senior government officials. There are rare occasions when the Governor General does not agree with his or her ministers. The most famous example occurred when Governor General Lord Byng refused Prime Minister Mackenzie King's request to dissolve Parliament in 1926.

 

[Kat Stevens]

So why hasnt this officer been dismissed from the service ?

Because he hasn't done anything REALLLY offensive yet, like smoke a cigarette near a door, or own a gun.  : :

 

[JBoyd]

I don't have any feelings for the Queen myself, well, any good ones. She's just a figurehead for tradition for Canada and has been the center of debate for years whether Canada should sever the ties with the Monarchy.

Since she represents Canada I'd salute her, but not because she's part of the Royal Family as they should have no bearing in Canada, except as foriegn officers and the like. If push came to shove she has no say over the Canadian Miltary as it now stands (from what I understand, has no real political power at all), and that's all that matters to me.

Despite the fact that Canada severed the legislative dependence from the UK with the passing of the Canada Act in 1982, The Queen has remained Head Of State to this day and still holds all of her constitutional powers. As well, although the Governor General does act as the de facto Head of State and the Queen's federal representive in Canada, Her Majesty does hold several powers that are hers and hers alone.

 

[tomahawk6]

Because he hasn't done anything REALLLY offensive yet, like smoke a cigarette near a door, or own a gun.   : :

You cannot pick and chose who you salute. Refusal to salute is an offence at least in the US Army.

 

[Kat Stevens]

A poor attempt on my part to show the fawked up sense of priorities in Canada

 

[Blackadder1916]

You cannot pick and chose who you salute. Refusal to salute is an offence at least in the US Army.

The idiot officer FNAHK with the unpronounceable name has not (according to my reading of the reports) refused to salute or toast our Sovereign nor has he (on any occasion that has been reported) failed to do so.  What he did was take all legal steps to change the requirement to so do, as his "belief" is that Queen Elizabeth (nor anyone not Canadian?) should not be the Head of State of Canada.  There are no service offences (or civil offences that I am aware of) that outlaw beliefs, opinions or feelings, only ones that outlaw actions or neglect of actions.  Whether he committed an service offence by publically stating his political beliefs in the manner that he did is another matter, one that is not so cut and dried as some would like to believe.

That being said, I still believe he is a disloyal tool.

 

[RTaylor]

I'd salute the Queen because I've made an oath to do so. If I only made the oath to salute the flag that's all I'd salute (well, besides officers and so forth).

The Queen is royalty and as much as I can remember they all hold some commission in their respective military, so in the end an officer is an officer and I'd be saluting that (the same as we'd salute the US President or some other foriegn power we'd salute them in their manner if the situation dictated). It makes me feel better to think of it that way than to be saluting her just because she's Queen of another country.

In all honesty we're only hearing from the media on this and thinking the guy a monster, I'd like to hear a chunk of his reasoning about this.

 

[the 48th regulator]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/52232/post-467852.html#msg467852

[quote author=Mac Giolla Chainnigh]

''It's a situation of institutional harassment that members of Canadian Forces be obliged to toast the Queen of Canada at regimental dinners,'' says Mac Giolla Chainnigh, who also objects officers being required to show respect to the Union Jack. ''To fail to do so would be interpreted as disloyalty, which could carry up to nine years imprisonment.''

''You might, as a military officer, wish to express your unity with those who served Canada during a particular war, but (not) ... the obligation to recognize a foreign monarch as having a situation of authority over the Canadian Armed Forces.''
[/quote]

Was that what you were looking for?

dileas

tess

 

[aesop081]

just because she's Queen of another country.

She's the Queen of this country you know

From my oath of allegiance certificate :

Do swear that i will be faithful and bear true allegiance to her majesty, Quen Elizabeth the second, Queen of Canada, her heirs and successors according to law

 

[HItorMiss]

It makes me feel better to think of it that way than to be saluting her just because she's Queen of another country.

I can't believe it has to be said again she is not just the Queen of England she is also THE QUEEN OF CANADA.

You are saluting her because you swore to do her bidding in the defence of her nation under the rule of her Parliament by proxy of the Governor General. Can it be any more clear then this?

 

[Sig_Des]

I'd salute the Queen because I've made an oath to do so. If I only made the oath to salute the flag that's all I'd salute (well, besides officers and so forth).

The Queen is royalty and as much as I can remember they all hold some commission in their respective military, so in the end an officer is an officer and I'd be saluting that (the same as we'd salute the US President or some other foriegn power we'd salute them in their manner if the situation dictated). It makes me feel better to think of it that way than to be saluting her just because she's Queen of another country.

In all honesty we're only hearing from the media on this and thinking the guy a monster, I'd like to hear a chunk of his reasoning about this.

Fact of the matter is, when you make that Oath of Allegiance, you are making an oath to the state, as Embodied by Her Majesty the Queen. If you aren't actually making that oath a personal one, than your oath to country, IMHO, is omitted. Remember when the Queen too her coronation oath, she promises "to govern the Peoples of... Canada... according to their respective laws and customs."

Personally, I'm not much of a Royalist by any means, but I see her as Queen of Canada, and I took that oath, and I swore by it.

 

[George Wallace]

......... she is also THE QUEEN OF CANADA.

.......she is also THE QUEEN OF CANADA.

 

[HItorMiss]

Ok Goerge just made it clearer...... ;D

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

A poor attempt on my part to show the fawked up sense of priorities in Canada

Actually I thought your line was just awesome.....

 

[Kat Stevens]

Thanks, sometimes my tone just doesn't translate well to print.  Trust me, I'm an absolute riot in person. 

 

[the 48th regulator]

Thanks, sometimes my tone just doesn't translate well to print.  Trust me, I'm an absolute riot in person.  

Cough Cough....mind if you and Bruce go to the other side of the smoke area, I am trying enjoy the fresh air....

dileas

tess

 

[eurowing]

It isn't well known, but Canada was the first to proclaim the Queen as our own.  I'm sure I could find better sources than Wiki, but I know it is true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II_of_the_United_Kingdom

Elizabeth was proclaimed Queen in Canada first, by the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, on 6 February 1952.[29] Her British proclamation was read at St. James's Palace the following day.

 

[JBoyd]

It isn't well known, but Canada was the first to proclaim the Queen as our own.  I'm sure I could find better sources than Wiki, but I know it is true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II_of_the_United_Kingdom

Elizabeth was proclaimed Queen in Canada first, by the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, on 6 February 1952.[29] Her British proclamation was read at St. James's Palace the following day.

Here is a list of Canadian Monarchs dating back to Confederation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_monarchs

It is also of good importance to know that although some have alluded to the fact that we are recognizing a foreign monarch, that is not the case. With the passing of the Statute of Westminster in 1931, the Canadian Crown became legally distinct from the other crowns of the commonweatlth, Meaning Canada has a national monarch.