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RMC Officer Sues to Avoid Saluting, Toasting Queen?

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gordjenkins said:
You are just ticked off because it was RMC Cadets who refused to attend "compulsory " Church Parades years ago-
and WON!
Tying back to debates of church is a bit of a red herring.  In Canada we have a constitutionally granted freedom of religion.  There is not freedom to arbitrarily  opt-out of accepting/acknowledging the government hierarchy as given through the Constitution.
 
Infanteer said:
Yay - it's this argument again.  Does anyone have anything interesting to add, or are we just going to toss this around for another 10 pages?

:boring:
I say that the following is happening: :deadhorse:


Feel free to shut 'er down.
 
I think there's a lot of irony in this.  Ostensibly, Mr. Mac Giolla Chiannigh is pursuing this a demonarchist... however, he's produced some incredibly pro-monarchist sentiment here and elsewhere that would otherwise have no reason to surface or be expressed.
 
Let me correct Mr Jenkins from an informed point of view.  I was an officer cadet at CMR St-Jean in the very early 80s, and I can assure him that in 1980 (to be precise) I was not forced to attend a church parade.  I had to form up with my squadron, true, but was dismissed before the church-goers marched into chapel.  So that red herring can be safely put into the trash.  It was over a generation and a half ago.  Years before the current crop of OCdts were even born. I fail to see what that argument has to do with this thread.  And Mr. Jenkins, as a retired officer, I might remind you that you did swear that oath.  If you swore it with mental reservations as to your loyalty to the crown you wore on your cap badge and the admonishment on your commissioning scroll, then you should question your conscience.  By the way, I trust you decline to show up for mess dinners - because should you ever manage to get invited to my unit and refuse to stand for the loyal toast, I can assure you that I would evict you from the premises, just as I would evict Capt Kenney.
 
Ummm... Might suggest to Mr Jenkins AND Capt Kenney that they should both fold up their commission scrolls and send em back to the Governor General - postage paid.
 
I suppose it depends on how long ago we are referring to the state of affairs at RMC.  The January 1926 Standing Orders for RMC state:

DIVINE SERVICE

157.    Cadets will parade once every Sunday for divine service, attanding the church of the denomination to which they belong. ...

Then again, it also states:

162.    The clergy in charge of the churches attended by Cadets are encouraged to visit the College for intercourse with the Cadets of their own denomination.

 
Swearing the Oath binds the oath taker literally and symbolically to the nation by swearing personal alliance to the person of the Head of State. In the United States, the same purpose is served by swearing to uphold the Constitution.

In the case of divine worship, it seems clear that the regulations of 1926 were written with the intent to create closer ties between the officer cadets and the local community. You will notice that although there is an unwritten assumption that everyone is a churchgoing Christian, no one is compelled to go to a particular church. The relationship is also supposed to practical and symbiotic, the local clergy are being encouraged to come to the college and interact with the student body, rather than leaving everything to the school Padre.

While it would be nice for HRH to come and visit more often, we can get a similar effect with an interested and engaged CoC like Her Excellency Adrienne Clarkson, but this is not necessary for either the Monarch or the Governor General to discharge their duties (or us ours).
 
However,

The Queen is also Supreme Governor of the Church of England , so in essence we are also swearing allegiance to the Church of England.

Sorry, the Catholic in me, had to throw that in to the damn mix....

Well if Capt. Magillacudyoopsidroppedmyshillelagh uses that argument, I better get some ducats for the help!

dileas

dileas

tess
 
Not entirely true:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_in_Canada

In Canada, the Queen's official title is:

    * In English: Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.
    * In French: Elizabeth Deux, par la grâce de Dieu, Reine du Royaume-Uni, du Canada et de ses autres royaumes et territoires, Chef du Commonwealth, Défenseur de la Foi.

This style communicates Canada's status as an independent monarchy, highlighting the sovereign's role specifically as Queen of Canada, as well as the shared aspect of the Crown throughout the realms, by mentioning Canada separately from the other countries. Typically, the sovereign is styled "Queen of Canada," and is addressed as such when in Canada, or performing duties on behalf of Canada abroad.

Although the Queen's Canadian titles include "Defender of the Faith/Défenseur de la Foi," neither the Queen nor any of her governors has any religious role in Canada; there have been no established churches in Canada since before confederation.
 
Plus, "Defender of the Faith" was a title bestowed by the Pope in Rome upon Henry VIII for his vigorous challenge to the emerging Protestant Reformation - before Henry, on political grounds, decided that he, not the Pope, needed to be "Head of the Church" in England.
 
JesseWZ said:
I am not sure if this is a topic split or not... I do agree with the majority of users on here regarding anti-monarchist tendencies. If that is the case, the CF is not for you. I am loyal to the Queen and Canada Full stop.

I have heard the term drumming out bandied about here a bit and I was wondering if someone could share a little context for a young subordinate officer. I did a search and turned up nothing that appeared to match my inquiries. If an officer were to be drummed out it would be done at a parade no? And would the officers commission be "removed" at the time as well as rank?
I am also curious as to how often this occurs now.
Thanks in advance.

It's a bad thing. I hope it's gone. There are other ways to deal with problem children these days such as "enforcing existing regulations."

In this case, next time (if) he refuses to show proper respect to The Crown as required by his Oath -- charge him and then be done with him. It really is that simple. After all, that's what would happen to the first troop who refused to salute this gent's Queen's Commission.
 
Thucydides said:
Swearing the Oath binds the oath taker literally and symbolically to the nation by swearing personal alliance to the person of the Head of State. In the United States, the same purpose is served by swearing to uphold the Constitution.

In the case of divine worship, it seems clear that the regulations of 1926 were written with the intent to create closer ties between the officer cadets and the local community. You will notice that although there is an unwritten assumption that everyone is a churchgoing Christian, no one is compelled to go to a particular church. The relationship is also supposed to practical and symbiotic, the local clergy are being encouraged to come to the college and interact with the student body, rather than leaving everything to the school Padre.

While it would be nice for HRH to come and visit more often, we can get a similar effect with an interested and engaged CoC like Her Excellency Adrienne Clarkson, but this is not necessary for either the Monarch or the Governor General to discharge their duties (or us ours).

There was no school padre per se. The permanent chaplaincy was created after WW2. It was stood up like all the other Branchs for the Great War of 1914-1918 and after the war everyone went back to their home towns and parishes. Between the wars troops (what regulars there were, the number was as low as 3000 for the whole of Canada in the early 30s) were marched out the front gates and either to the "Church of England" (anglican church of canada is a name we adopted in 1954)or the Roman Catholic Church. Most troops attended as it was a social norm of the day and considered military tradition. The reference to clergy visiting the school is because there was no permanent clergy at the school and they were being reminded of their duty to visit all their parishioners including "the Gentlemen Cadets."

PS Thanks to Trinity for saving my honour....I indeed did not ever say that someone should be considered a pariah...check the record.
 
Like Capt O'whatshisname, I oppose a foreign head of state and I do not accept the neat Constitutional fiction that HM is Canadian whenever she needs to be she. She is, most of time, an agent of the Government of Great Britain - she routinely acts as a trade and commerce shill promoting British goods and services in markets in which we compete. It is a conflict of interest – actual not perceived – and it can only get worse as time goes by.

That being said I do not believe we should do away with our Constitutional Monarchy – just the monarch.

Let me explain (again  :boring: ): when, regrettably, HM dies (as she must), it is expected that some official or another – someone who holds or controls the Great Seal of Canada – will proclaim (roughly) that “The Queen is dead! God save the King!” In that moment HM’s “lawful heir and successor” will become King of Canada. I propose that on that sad day – and it will be sad because HM EIIR has been an excellent monarch for Canada – and even better for the UK – the official will simply say: “The Queen is dead!” and return to his or her office. In that moment we will evolve into something called a Regency (much as I hate to cite it, Wikipedia gives a good, concise explanation of the term: ”a period of time when a regent reigns, and in a non-ceremonial monarchy holds power, in the name of the current monarch, or in the name of the Crown itself, if the throne is vacant.”) There have been several regencies in British (and French) history. In our case, since no replacement monarch would have been proclaimed we would have to find our own Regent – certainly, on Constitution grounds, the governor general of the day would be the only properly qualified person.

I would not suggest we just spring this on poor old Princes Charles and William on the sad day. Our Parliament should pass a resolution (which is not a law), rather like the Nickel Resolution (1919, I think) which did away with honours for Canadians and which Jean Chrétien used, in the 1990s to force HM to not give Conrad Black entrée into the UK’s House of Lords until he (Black) renounced his Canadian citizenship . That resolution should say that we do not accept the Succession Act of 1703, etc, etc, (because, inter alia, they discriminate against Catholics) and, therefore, we reserve the right, at the appropriate moment, to issue our own list of HM’s “lawful heirs and successors” to the Throne of Canada. I further suggest that we delay doing that, and then delay further and then delay some more, and, and, and ad infinitum. Such a resolution will constitutionally bind HM (and her British “heirs and successors”) and they will be unable to lay claim to the Throne of Canada, which will be vacant.

Nothing in our Constitution will change – we will still have the RCMP and HMC Ships – we just will be missing the actual “majesty” to sit on the throne in the Senate and wave to the crowds. We would still swear allegiance to our sovereign - even if we would not be too sure about who (s)he might be, by name. When the King of England comes to visit, on a trade mission, it will be as our honoured guest (and Head of the Commonwealth) and our Governor General Regent will welcome the King on behalf of the Canadian sovereign (to be named at a much, much, much later date) and the people of Canada.

We will, likely, want to reconsider how we select the GG – just as the British reconsidered how they selected their monarchs after the Glorious Revolution of 1688. In 1688 the British gave us the excellent tradition which says that the people have a right to select their own form of government and, even, their own monarch. That right still exists for us, in Canada, in 2008; we should exercise it.


 
Wow, so many experts on the monarchy, all gathered here in one place.  I would think, after 1000 or so years of experience in the succession of rulers, that there might be the odd chap or two in the UK who are a tad more up on these things than we are.  I'm quite certain, when the sad day comes, that contingency plans are in place for a seamless transfer of the bosses hat, the big stick, and the shiny ball.

As for captain Mac Gilla Go Rilla, sit on yer shileileigh, and rotate.
 
Kat Stevens said:
Wow, so many experts on the monarchy, all gathered here in one place.  I would think, after 1000 or so years of experience in the succession of rulers, that there might be the odd chap or two in the UK who are a tad more up on these things than we are.  I'm quite certain, when the sad day comes, that contingency plans are in place for a seamless transfer of the bosses hat, the big stick, and the shiny ball.
...

And those chaps in the UK are the right people to plan the "seamless transfer" of the UK's sovereign. It ought to be chaps in Canada who plan the transfer for Canadians - unless we are just supposed to agree that the Motherland knows best about how we should run our own country. We are fighting in Afghanistan to allow the Afghans to make their own decision about their own country in their own way - we might extend that principle to Canada and Canadians, too. We have a Canadian Monarchy; surely we, and not some clever chaps in London, are entitled to decide who sits on the throne.
 
ArmyVern said:
Well, to be fair -- I know he didn't use the term "Non-Commissioned" to refer to us Oath Swearers in the CF, but rather to refer to "Non-Commissioned" types outside of the CF (ergo his simultaneous use of the term "Mister").  ;)

And, I agree with him -- 111%.

Ahh, but I being old....er remember the days when RSM's and SSM'S where commonly refered to by the officer corps as "Mister" as a sign of respect.... Different perspective I guess....

P.S. I've a lot to catch up to on this topic... That 4 letter word "Work" keeps interfering......
 
E.R. Campbell said:
And those chaps in the UK are the right people to plan the "seamless transfer" of the UK's sovereign. It ought to be chaps in Canada who plan the transfer for Canadians - unless we are just supposed to agree that the Motherland knows best about how we should run our own country. We are fighting in Afghanistan to allow the Afghans to make their own decision about their own country in their own way - we might extend that principle to Canada and Canadians, too. We have a Canadian Monarchy; surely we, and not some clever chaps in London, are entitled to decide who sits on the throne.

I'm sure there are one, two, or thirty constitutional scholars in Ottawa who are paid a goodly chunk more than you or I (well, I anyway) to do exactly that.
 
if he has such a huge problem, resign  hand back his commsion , after all he signed the line and agreed to terms of service.
 
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