Return of the Army Forage Cap?

[George Wallace]

>

I think you are colour blind.

My beret is BLACK, not Navy Blue or Royal Blue or any other shade of Blue.  Then again, I am not Navy.  As an artilleryman I wore a Royal Blue Beret with red felt backing to the hatbadge, and it too was not Black.  I could easily tell the difference when side by each.  Today's naval personnel, when standing next to a crewman, seem to be wearing the same colour beret.  If you see differently, please let us know.  If not, please don't try to tell the crewman that his beret is any shade of Blue.  The result may not be favourable.

 

[Pusser]

Don't misunderstand me.  It is well known that the Armour folks wear black berets.  I've never said anything to the contrary.  All I'm saying is that naval berets are navy blue (which is different from the royal blue once worn by the Artillery)

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Well Kettle, this only supports my point that sailors should not be wearing berets with service dress.  By the way, in the Navy, our berets are navy blue, not black (I don't care what the silly label says- it's the same colour as my tunic; therefore, it is navy BLUE).

Don't misunderstand me.  It is well known that the Armour folks wear black berets.  I've never said anything to the contrary.  All I'm saying is that naval berets are navy blue (which is different from the royal blue once worn by the Artillery)

Actually, they're  not. Please read on

The berets may well are supposed to be Navy Blue, and you can hold out in defence of the Navy, but they are not blue. They are black. I too remember the days when Arty and RCEME berets were blue and the difference was distinctive.

We know wiki is not the greatest source, however, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_blue

Military
In the United States Navy and the Canadian Forces Maritime Command, uniforms which are called navy blue (e.g. Working Blues and Service Dress Blues in the US, and uniforms 1, 1A, 2B, 3, 3A, 3B (winter), 3C in Canada) are, in actuality, colored black. Canadian Forces Dress Instructions for naval units and members specify that, " 'navy blue' is a tone of black".[4] (See also Uniforms of the United States Navy and Uniforms of the Canadian Forces).

and from our very own A-AD-265-000/AG-001 (Dress Regs) DEFINITIONS, para 21 ENVIROMENTAL COLOURS:

Environmental Colours. Means, for these purposes, the environmental winter service dress colours of navy black, army rifle green, and air force light blue (traditional service colours, used for other applications, are “navy blue” which is a tone of black, army scarlet, and air force light blue). (couleurs del’élément)

Midnight blue, as used in Mess dress, is darker than Navy blue, and near indistinguishable from black. However, the difference is still there and discernable.

So start taking care of our Armoured Corp black berets properly please ;D



edit - spelling

 

[Pusser]

Sometimes it can be such fun to yank soldiers' chains. ;D

If you were to measure the wavelength of the light reflected off of an armoured soldier's beret and compare it to that of a sailor's beret (this is how colour is actually defined), you would likely come up with the same result (after making allowances for grease, dust and wear  ).  So yes, technically, they are the same colour.  Nevertheless, the soldier's is black and the sailor's is blue.

Ever since the Royal Navy standardized its uniforms in the mid-19th Century, their and (except for the green interlude) our uniforms have been the same colour.  The colour has not changed.  They have always been blue, because we say they are blue, notwithstanding the wavelength of the light reflected off of them.  No sailor would ever wear a black uniform!

The history behind this is simple.  Years ago (more than a century in fact), it was very difficult to attain consistency in blue dyes.  Different batches of material would be slightly different shades and so uniformity would be lost.  The solution to get around this was to make the dye very very dark.  Dark to the point where a soldier (there were no air people then) would probably say it was black.  In this way, consistency was obtained.

Back in the "Green" era, the Naval Officers Association  of Canada sprung for the cost of traditional "blue" uniforms for the Stadacona and Naden Bands.  The results were less than ideal.    Unfortunately, no one told the tailors (they were all custom made) about the reality of "navy blue" and so they made the uniforms out of what the civilian world calls navy blue material.  At inside venues, the uniforms looked great (although sailors don't wear black, they really shouldn't be wearing green).  Alas, outside in the bright sunlight, they turned purple (not so good).  We all got a bit of a chuckle out of that.

Thus in order to ensure our uniforms are blue, we have to dye them so dark that other folks think they are black, but they are blue nonetheless.

This debate reminds me of a similar one that went on for years in the Air Force.  When the RAF was formed in 1918, it was an amalgamation of the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service.  A new badge with a "bird" was designed and issued.  For years the debate went on as to what kind of bird it was.  Despite an official description calling it an eagle, the RNAS veterans swore up and down that it was an albatross and you could never convince them differently.

 

[dapaterson]

They have always been blue, because we say they are blue, notwithstanding the wavelength of the light reflected off of them. 

What a great summation of today's Navy: "Reality be damned!  Things are what we say they are, because we say so!  Who let reality intrude into our world?"

 

[medicineman]

  No sailor would ever wear a black uniform!

I don't know, seen an awful lot of engineers/hull techs with what likely WERE at one point off blue uniforms, but they're well beyond salvaging any semblance of that now...

MM

 

[Pusser]

What a great summation of today's Navy: "Reality be damned!  Things are what we say they are, because we say so!  Who let reality intrude into our world?"

So what's your point?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

What a great summation of today's Navy: "Reality be damned!  Things are what we say they are, because we say so!  Who let reality intrude into our world?"

Yup. Even when the official dress regs say it's black : I guess everything in their world is blue.....................except the sky

 

[CountDC]

Good job Pusser, keep those junior elements in line. 

Haven't tried it in a few years but when I ran hot water through my then  new beret the colour that ran out was Blue not Black so unless they have changed the dye they are still actually a very dark Blue - Navy Blue.

and yes DAP you have it right in your last.

 

[CountDC]

Yup. Even when the official dress regs say it's black : I guess everything in their world is blue.....................except the sky

Most likely written by some army type that didn't know any better.  ;D

 

[Journeyman]

So what's your point?

I guess the point is you're coming across as a complete fucking idiot....saying "yes, X is the factual truth, but we countinue to spout Y because that's what we're told."

I was going to post that this has become the most retarded thread outside of Recruiting....then I recalled all the pomp and circumstance surrounding the QUOTE senior service's UNQUOTE 100th anniversary -- notwithstanding the inconvenience of several army regiments commemorating 150th anniversaries.

Some of us are OK with reality -- I guess that's the point.

:

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sometimes it can be such fun to yank soldiers' chains. ;D/

I think you guys missed the sarcasm and humor in pussers post.

Hence the above...

Anyways Peak Caps/Forage Caps/Service Caps for all!!!!!! Berets are for John Wayne and Parisians!  > > :nod:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Yup, their sky isn't blue

 

[medicineman]

:rofl:

 

[Pusser]

I guess the point is you're coming across as a complete ******* idiot....saying "yes, X is the factual truth, but we countinue to spout Y because that's what we're told."

I was going to post that this has become the most retarded thread outside of Recruiting....then I recalled all the pomp and circumstance surrounding the QUOTE senior service's UNQUOTE 100th anniversary -- notwithstanding the inconvenience of several army regiments commemorating 150th anniversaries.

Some of us are OK with reality -- I guess that's the point.

:

You need to look up, because what I'm saying is obviously going right over your head. :nod:

Reality can be pretty boring sometimes.

As to the "Senior Service" issue:  The Navy is the senior service because it has the longest history of direct service to the Crown.  The Royal Navy was formally established in the 16th Century.  At that point in time, armies were privately raised (i.e by a noble) and usually for a specific purpose.  In fact, there is a long history of specific acts in Britain designed purposefully to prevent the creation of a standing army. Regiments were raised and disbanded on a regular basis.  The key point is that armies were raised by individuals, who in turn would offer their armies up for service if the Crown requested it.  However, the Navy was permanent and raised (and paid) by the Crown directly.

The 100th Anniversary that just occurred was in commemoration of the passing of the Naval Service Act, which created the Canadian Navy, but did not start something completely new.  The fledgling RCN was in fact, considered a sub-component of a greater imperial navy (said so right in the Act).  Thus, the Canadian Navy inherited the "Senior Service" title.

 

[a_majoor]

One infamous Forage Cap holdout was Col Strome Galloway. In several of his books, you can see the progression of Canadian uniforms from the mid 1930's to wartime patterns. Throughout, Galloway ALWAYS wore a Forage Cap (by the time we see group photos taken during the Italian campaign he is the only one wearing them).

I met him a few times in the late 80's and early 90's, and yes indeed he was still wearing a Forage Cap when in his honourary Colonel's uniform....

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Having been both Armoured and Navy the beret is black, if you like call it navy black but it sure as hell is not navy blue.

 

[aesop081]

Most likely written by some army type that didn't know any better.  ;D

....or a Navy guy that calls one uniform "Salt & Peppers" and realizes that pepper is black.

 

[Pusser]

So I guess everything in the Army and Air Force is logical, clearly defined and exactly as it appears?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So I guess everything in the Army and Air Force is logical, clearly defined and exactly as it appears?

It doesn't matter. You live in a fantasy world, make it whatever you want. I don't think anyone is listening to you anymore anyway. Just a guess though, on my part.

Say hi to Alice and the gang for me