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Reservists in AFG (merged)

A friend of mine played the Camp Mirage game last year, he says it was pretty boring. However, he did spend something like 35 days in Kabul, so he at least got that experience.

And even if a tour doesn't give you the tax break, and it doesn't have danger pay, you can still put more in the bank over 6 months than you could at your average civvy job. Depending, of course, on how much you indulge on your leave...
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
Mirage's location remains "close hold".    No mention should be made of the host nation.

Hence the XXXXX I'd hate to have that Bear angry at me  ;) 
 
Those of you heading off to Kandahar may find this interesting; it is from today'sNational Post at: http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=062c108f-1990-4183-a8e9-9c19135f9fc5

Highlights are mine.

Avoiding 'the big, bad Americans'
Afghanistan mission: Canadians to be housed elsewhere in Kandahar

Chris Wattie
National Post

Monday, April 25, 2005

Hundreds of Canadian soldiers preparing to deploy to restive southern Afghanistan this summer will likely be housed at a significant distance from a large, well-protected U.S. base ''for reasons of optics,'' military sources say.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, they told the National Post the Canadians, part of a provincial reconstruction team bound for the southern city of Kandahar, have been told to establish their main base separately from a heavily fortified U.S. base at the city's airport.

''It's for reasons of optics -- political optics,'' said one senior officer. ''We don't want to be associated with the big, bad Americans ... so we're setting up shop somewhere else.''

The military has been told to base the Canadian mission in downtown Kandahar, not on the U.S. base on the outskirts of the ancient city. The American base is home to Task Force Bronco, a coalition force that is still hunting Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in Afghanistan's rugged hill country.

Gordon O'Connor, the Conservative defence critic and former general, said the Canadian team would still be operating under the U.S.-led task force and that setting up a separate base is not likely to fool anyone.

"They certainly aren't going to be able to hide the fact that we're allies of the Americans," he said. "And [a separate base] is certainly going to cost us more in terms of providing our own security and logistics."

He said adding a Canadian compound to the U.S. facility would be cheaper and probably safer. "They're balancing off the risks, I suppose ... but it's going to definitely be more expensive."

By late August, as many as 1,000 Canadian soldiers could be sent to create a provincial reconstruction team, or PRT, in Kandahar, the capital of the southernmost Afghan province and birthplace of the Taliban.

Two Canadian Forces reconnaissance teams have already scouted out the region, looking for potential sites for the mission's base and possible projects for its military aid operations.

A third, more detailed reconnaissance team of about 20 officers is leaving for Afghanistan next week to put the final details on the proposed mission, which could involve anywhere from 200 to 1,000 Canadian soldiers, combat engineers or support staff.

Military sources said some troops based in Ontario have been notified they could be on their way to Afghanistan this summer and have even begun training for the mission. But Captain Darren Steele, a spokesman for the Canadian Forces, said the operation is still in the planning stages.

"The government of Canada has not taken a decision on this yet," he said from National Defence headquarters in Ottawa. "But planning and preparation has to proceed -- you can't go into something like this from a cold start."

However, he said the exact number, composition and location of the Canadian team has not been finalized. "The numbers are very fluid at this point."

Howard Marsh, an analyst for the Conference of Defence Associations, said the order to base the Canadian mission apart from the Americans might have been supported by the generals for military reasons.

"There's a political dimension to that decision certainly, but there's also a military dimension," he said. "If you're too close to the Americans ... it can distance you from the locals, which cuts you off from the intelligence and all the relationships you are trying to develop with them."

Lewis MacKenzie, a retired army major general who now works as a defence analyst, said the Kandahar mission was the wrong choice: He believes Canadian soldiers should be out helping U.S.-led forces hunt down the last remnants of the Taliban and their al-Qaeda allies.

"The constabulary work in Afghanistan should've been shut down a long time ago," he said. "Canada should be with its allies, fighting the terrorists up in the hills."

Bill Graham, the Defence Minister, speculated last February that in addition to the PRT Canada could send a battle group -- between 700 and 1,200 troops -- to the Kandahar region early next year to join Task Force Bronco in combat operations.

A spokesman for the Minister said such a combat force is still one of the options under consideration.


The Canadian PRT in Kandahar will be only the latest of several such military-protected aid teams aimed at boosting stability in the Afghan countryside with projects such as building schools and clinics. Other nations, including New Zealand, Italy and the United States, have set up similar teams across western and southern Afghanistan.

But outside the major cities, the security situation remains tenuous at best.

Last Monday, Taliban rebels detonated a bomb next to a fuel tanker outside the U.S. base in Kandahar, setting off a chain of explosions that destroyed five tankers and injured three drivers.

In the past two months, Taliban fighters launched attacks in the region that left 19 dead, including 10 rebels killed by U.S. troops.

And in Kandahar, a U.S. soldier was wounded by gunfire last February while investigating a roadside bomb.

© National Post 2005

I agree, broadly, with CBH99 who said, at http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30021/post-207042.html#msg207042 that â ? The media has been publishing articles like this for years, always trying to strike fear into the hearts of the general public about the state of military affairs in Canada.â ?

I also agree with Howie Marsh that, "There's a political dimension to that decision certainly, but there's also a military dimension ... If you're too close to the Americans ... it can distance you from the locals, which cuts you off from the intelligence and all the relationships you are trying to develop with them."


 
Agreed completely reference the danger pay, I was just curious. My second question is in regards to work up training. I have heard, and again Im just a lowly MO guy,  that TF 106 is work up will be run by 1 CMBG i.e. the PPCLI, and putting two and two together as the infantry component of the task force will predominantly be made of 3 PPCLI B COY (??? rumour alert ???) is it a fair assumption they will run work up?

Also when the D&S guys rotated in from Mirage was it basically to cover off D&S responsibilities in Afghan?

Thanks again guys. Who knows Kev if I get on this we could have a lightfighter get together in edmonchuck. Lol I really just want to drool over all of your sexy kit!
 
PhilB said:
Agreed completely reference the danger pay, I was just curious. My second question is in regards to work up training. I have heard, and again Im just a lowly MO guy,   that TF 106 is work up will be run by 1 CMBG i.e. the PPCLI, and putting two and two together as the infantry component of the task force will predominantly be made of 3 PPCLI B COY (??? rumour alert ???) is it a fair assumption they will run work up?

That will be up to 1 CMBG and LFWA to decide.  For the 38 CBG deployment, 38 CBG ran the work-up training.  The problem is that the D&S Platoon doesn't deploy on the same timeline as the remainder of ATHENA.

Also when the D&S guys rotated in from Mirage was it basically to cover off D&S responsibilities in Afghan?

Yes, that's what happened on Roto 2 and (I believe) Roto 3.

KevinB said:
Hence the XXXXX I'd hate to have that Bear angry at me   ;)   
Yeah, he's pretty nasty!  :P  I've had Mirage and OPSEC beaten into my head for four years now...  As if the horde of Canucks can't be spotted in town, buying everything in sight!!  ::)

 
PhilB said:
  that TF 106 is work up will be run by 1 CMBG i.e. the PPCLI, and putting two and two together as the infantry component of the task force will predominantly be made of 3 PPCLI B COY (??? rumour alert ???) is it a fair assumption they will run work up?

The TF106 infantry component will be coming from 1 PPCLI.

As Teddy mentioned it is up to 1 CMBG and LFWA to decide who runs the work-up.  This will usually be tasked out to units and one of them will be the lead and the others fill in as necessary.  I know we are running Level 5/6 ranges(if not more) for 3VP and their work-up this May, but I'm sure other units are running other portions of their training.
 
I think the author of that article confused info/dates of the upcoming Op Athena Roto 4, out of Petawawa, with a future Op ?????(TF 106) in Kandahar, out of LFWA...
 
Just to be clear:

LFCA has ATHENA Roto 4 (end tour sometime in Feb 06)

3 PPCLI has the Strategic Reserve/Surge 05 task (PRT task - if announced - to Kandahar)

1 PPCLI is TF 01-06 (deployment to be determined - post Feb 06)

Standby brigade HQ for 06 is HQ 1 CMBG.

MIRAGE will be needed regardless, and that's where the platoon we're talking about would be tasked.  As I said earlier, their deployment dates are usually a bit "off" rotations on ATHENA.

A lot of this is on a not-so-clear poster published by Land Staff - coming soon to an Armoury near you!

Cheers,

TR
 
haha I've seen that poster...expect your unit to hire a rocket scientist to figure it out. At first glance, it is truly baffling, and it says at the top 'its not that complicated'

I would relate the confused looks it was getting from people to the looks a group of cavemen would give a Commodore 64.
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
Yeah, he's pretty nasty!   :P   I've had Mirage and OPSEC beaten into my head for four years now...   As if the horde of Canucks can't be spotted in town, buying everything in sight!!     ::)

So how secret is secret? With a bit of research as a rather informed civi I can make a pretty good guesstimate as to where Camp Mirage is located...it seems as though a few of the those involved have been a little bit lazy on the OPSEC :o. Not to reveal anything here but down to the actual question I have...is the secrecy surrounding mirage due to the host nations desire to remain anonymous or is it more related to the actual OPSEC of the Canadians who are stationed there?

I suspect perhaps a bit of both?

cheers,
ryan.
 
It's both, but as I recall, when the negotiations were going on the HN asked Canada to keep the actual location quiet...  You can guess why.  We also have our own (pretty obvious) reasons for wanting to keep things low key.

Almost anyone can guess where it is, but (IMHO) the restriction is on to reduce excess publicity...

Cheers,

TR
 
I have just received a copy of the training schedule for the first month of the D&S plt work up. If any 031 from 41 Bgd is considering this tasking either post here or pm me with your info and I will email you a copy.

Cheers,

Phil
 
It's both, but as I recall, when the negotiations were going on the HN asked Canada to keep the actual location quiet...  You can guess why.  We also have our own (pretty obvious) reasons for wanting to keep things low key.  Almost anyone can guess where it is, but (IMHO) the restriction is on to reduce excess publicity...

Amen to that.  Using the term "secret base" sends the wrong message as to what Camp Mirage is.  Camp Mirage has been well covered by the Maple Leaf and other publications.  The Host Nation (HN) asked Canada not to discuss its location and we agreed to it.  

The D&S Pl from 41 CBG is supposed to stand up sortly.  They will be employed with LFWA TC for the summer months and then role into the BTE timelines.  I'm not sure what level of training they will achieve (probably Level 3) and take part in other aspects of BTE training.  I believe they are going over to 1 PPCLI for TMST training, etc prior to a possible deployment to Camp Mirage.  There are only guarantees of employment for this period, no promises of an actual deployment.
 
This gets me...

I also agree with Howie Marsh that, "There's a political dimension to that decision certainly, but there's also a military dimension ... If you're too close to the Americans ... it can distance you from the locals, which cuts you off from the intelligence and all the relationships you are trying to develop with them."

I call BS on that, the average Afghan does not/can not tell us apart from the Americans. Not the ANA, and definately not the uneducated masses in the villages...until we tell them the difference. To them, we are all white english speaking westerners, and arid digi pat cam doesn't help.

So this "concern" about beng too close to the Americans, is just Canadian political crap.

The Afghans actually trust the Americans, because in Afghan culture, your word is everything...and the US is Walking the Talk here, unlike, unfortunately, we are doing.

As for who is actually going where, well I guess we'll see. Needless to say, we are going to be flying into Afghanistan for the foreseeable future.
 
I call BS on that, the average Afghan does not/can not tell us apart from the Americans. Not the ANA, and definately not the uneducated masses in the villages...until we tell them the difference. To them, we are all white english speaking westerners, and arid digi pat cam doesn't help.

On Roto 2, B Coy conducted many dismounted patrols around Camp Julien (as had the other contingents that had spent the last year in the vicinity).  It became readily apparent that 99% of the locals thought the camp was an american base.  So I agree with you.
 
This shouldn't be a surprise.  In my experience, most of the Afghans (and Armymedic would know better than I) tended to lump all Westerners into one category.

We (Canadians) tend to think we're "special" and that foreign people view us "differently"...  We're often surprised to find how we're (not) thought of overseas.

I seem to remember a survey in Bosnia in about 2000 where a majority of those responding still thought we were Americans...after five years in the same AOR!

I don't believe that, in the Afghanistan context, there's anything at all to be gained by making feeble attempts to distance ourselves from the Americans.  Educated Afghans will tend to lump the "coalition" into one basket (rightfully so, IMHO), while the mass of people in the country will view us as Americans anyway - unless they have direct contact with our soldiers...
 

Cheers,

TR
 
Quote from the article Mr. Campbell posted:

The military has been told to base the Canadian mission in downtown Kandahar, not on the U.S. base on the outskirts of the ancient city. The American base is home to Task Force Bronco, a coalition force that is still hunting Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in Afghanistan's rugged hill country.

Acording to this article, the HQ of the US PRT currently in Kandahar already is in downtown Kandahar.. hmm...

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1212/p07s02-wosc.html?related

"The bomb outside the UN building was a wake-up call," says Lt. Col. Bob Duffy of the 321st Civil Affairs Brigade, which opened a Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT) in downtown Kandahar Thursday. The PRT is designed as a protective umbrella for a wide range of development projects by military and government agencies, both coalition and Afghan. Ultimately, the goal is to reach out from Kandahar to disadvantaged communities with a "hub-and-spoke" organization.

I'm not sure of the validity of that article I posted, and I'm not going to ask anyone to confirm or deny it unless they have some open source information...
 
Armymedic said:
This gets me...

I call BS on that, the average Afghan does not/can not tell us apart from the Americans. Not the ANA, and definately not the uneducated masses in the villages...until we tell them the difference. To them, we are all white english speaking westerners, and arid digi pat cam doesn't help.

So this "concern" about beng too close to the Americans, is just Canadian political crap.

The Afghans actually trust the Americans, because in Afghan culture, your word is everything...and the US is Walking the Talk here, unlike, unfortunately, we are doing.

As for who is actually going where, well I guess we'll see. Needless to say, we are going to be flying into Afghanistan for the foreseeable future.

Armymedic: I agree with you 100%. The ones gathering almost all of the operationally useful intel in Afgh were the US when I was there, and I assume the same is true now. The stereotypical nonsensical assumptions about how the US operate in Afghanistan are exemplified by Howie Marsh's silly comment. IMHO it just reeks of this phony Canadian holier-than-thou that turns my stomach. It is also based on the assumption that the average Afghan hates or signifcantly dislikes the US. I don't believe that this is true. The ones that hate the US will hate all Western, English speaking foreigners anyway. We are not in Afgh as a UN Ch VI "peace-keeping force", although some people still don't seem to get this fact. We are the US' allies and we need to start acting like it, not proposing to hide behind different coloured uniforms (or pulling other dumb stunts whether military or political)   in the hopes that US troops will take the IED or VBIED or sniper shot and ours won't.

The success in Afghanistan can, ovewhelmingly, be credited to the US and its forces. After that, to the Afghans themselves. ISAF (particularly the wretched, inert ISAF VI that I served as an LO...) runs a very distant third, with some member nations dropping way below that.

Cheers.
 
Armymedic said:
I call BS on that, the average Afghan does not/can not tell us apart from the Americans. Not the ANA, and definately not the uneducated masses in the villages...until we tell them the difference. To them, we are all white english speaking westerners, and arid digi pat cam doesn't help.

So this "concern" about beng too close to the Americans, is just Canadian political crap.

The Afghans actually trust the Americans, because in Afghan culture, your word is everything...and the US is Walking the Talk here, unlike, unfortunately, we are doing.

As for who is actually going where, well I guess we'll see. Needless to say, we are going to be flying into Afghanistan for the foreseeable future.

Words from a troop at the coal face - thanks Armymedic.  :salute:
 
Heck half the Germans, brits and EVEN Americans though we where Americans...

A buddy of mine got in an argument at Camp Phoenix about something (which I won't discuss in the 'open' - but lets just say it involved the term "Haji"  ;)) The young US Army Specialist gave him a lecture that as Americans we should be setting an example --> He thought we where Marines  ::)
 
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