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Reservists in AFG (merged)

Lotsa rumours floating around here and little substance...  PBI, as usual, has his ear to the ground and is likely the most in the loop of anyone with reference to future activities.  I see that the Romanians are as effective with 76 as they are here!  LOL

Some personal points.  I know LFWA selected minimal numbers of reservists for Athena 2, and those who were accepted generally had to have a previous tour - normally Bosnia.  Second, before the CIMIC Mafia gets too excited, I cannot see Canadian CIMIC manning PRTs complete (the roles are very different in some cases), and I especially cannot see a Reserve Officer being selected to head the first PRT rotation - whenever it comes.  There are units (Reg F) warned right now to deploy in 06 and as KevinB points out, there are Reg F units up to bat for upcoming deployments.

IMHO, this theatre is not yet ready for formed Reserve sub-units, especially if the K-har option is selected.  In a couple of years, maybe, but I was involved with the angst surrounding deployment of Res F coys to SFOR and am not certain that the gains are worth the effort.  The experience level in this theatre has to be very high, especially with a south-eastern Afg deployment.  As for individuals, as was pointed out above, it depends on the soldier.  Some Reserve soldiers have that combination of ability and experience that makes them perfect candidates for tours - any tour.  Many others don't - it depends entirely on the individual.
 
Out of curiosity... how is one expected to get that experience of a tour as a reservist... if a tour is generally required to get on another one...

(I dont mean to sound like a smartass here, Im serious)...  Or is the expectation really that individual soldiers will only be taken if they have enough experience, otherwise they will wait until the situation is so diluted we can safely allow the risk of someone without tour experience?

 
I have several reservists friends out or are going out to support or be in theatre right now.
I have to say that I am VERY bitter at the fact that they're out there, I got cut from going on TWO tours (roto 0 to a-stan I could understand why I got cut, but roto 12 to bosnia? you must be kidding) in the MO's, and I got cut from this tour coming up real soon for us.
1 RCR hasn't deployed since Kosovo in 2000, and there's alot of guys that have done a BE since then and have gotten out because they haven't gotten a tour. my good buddy is leaving the btl as that being one of his main reasons. on his second BE and he's been cut from two tours. I know there's a few guys comtemplating about getting out because they won't be able to get a tour on their current contract.
Greg
 
Meridian said:
Out of curiosity... how is one expected to get that experience of a tour as a reservist... if a tour is generally required to get on another one...

(I dont mean to sound like a smartass here, Im serious)...   Or is the expectation really that individual soldiers will only be taken if they have enough experience, otherwise they will wait until the situation is so diluted we can safely allow the risk of someone without tour experience?

This normally isn't a requirement, and a number of the Res we had on Op ATHENA R2 were on their first tour. It really depends on the specific job and on the threat level of the mission area. IMHO, sending inexperienced soldiers into a high-risk area is something you do only if you have no other choice. Another factor is that, at the moment, the demand level on the Army to source troops for overseas missions is the lowest it has been in years. Op ATHENA is the only deployment of any size, and about half of the people in TFK are support soldiers. A few of these are Res, but typically the Res CSS world has difficulty producing soldiers with adequate technical qualifications to fill overseas positions.

Yeoman said:
I have several reservists friends out or are going out to support or be in theatre right now.
I have to say that I am VERY bitter at the fact that they're out there, I got cut from going on TWO tours (roto 0 to a-stan I could understand why I got cut, but roto 12 to bosnia? you must be kidding) in the MO's, and I got cut from this tour coming up real soon for us.
1 RCR hasn't deployed since Kosovo in 2000, and there's alot of guys that have done a BE since then and have gotten out because they haven't gotten a tour. my good buddy is leaving the btl as that being one of his main reasons. on his second BE and he's been cut from two tours. I know there's a few guys comtemplating about getting out because they won't be able to get a tour on their current contract.
Greg

Again I have to ask the same question I asked earlier; (and I guess I'll get the same answer...) why does the Army have it all wrong? The leadership of the Army and the CF genuinely believe that the Army (including if not especially) the Cbt A is "toured out". I am getting the message from the Inf guys on this board that this is actually a distortion of the facts: that RegF Inf soldiers are ready and waiting to go overseas. How did we end up with such a confused interpretation of the facts? Cheers.
 
c_canuk said:
there are all kinds of posting in Afghanistan for R215s 5 people from my unit have been and gone, and a couple weeks previous to his posting to CDS Gen Hillier stopped by the barrack Green Armouries with the message that Canada is greatly increasing it's presence in Afghanistan and Reservests are going to be needed.

We had to get a lot of reservists to fulfill our commitment to Roto 0 in Camp Warehouse.  They did driver and D&S positions.  For the most part they did well but there were one or two that had a lot of problems and were eventually sent home early (both discipline and mental problems especially after we were rocketed)
 
R031button said:
I was talking to my OC, and I got the impression that the PRT he's been asked to head will be primarily reserve, if he has his way at least.

Why am I on standby to deploy to there then?
 
KevinB said:
The REGS will mutinee...

Some guys we have on their second BE dont have a tour...
 
Now try to keep up morale...   We got a lot of guys sayign F-IT I will get out and join the reserves to go on tour...

At our regt, we must take 2 reservists with our hvy dets as a minimum.  We have guys that have been here for years who want to deploy but have not been given a chance because they must send reservists.  One of the biggest complaints I hear from the guys is why do they get to go.
 
KevinB said:
PBI - The 031's are not burned out - it is the WOG trades due to our bloated TO&E's.   That FACT has to get pushed up...
  The Cbt Engineers are running short too due to their hevier than normal presence in the TO&E than the "accepted fact" of the Bde structure, good thing we got rid of Pioneers   ::)

WOGs, Our trade (215) is hardly a WOG trade as we have supported every mission in every festering hole in the world providing your calls home and ability to talk in the field.  Just because we are not a combat arms trade, doesn't mean that we are not a field trade.
 
Again I have to ask the same question I asked earlier; (and I guess I'll get the same answer...) why does the Army have it all wrong? The leadership of the Army and the CF genuinely believe that the Army (including if not especially) the Cbt A is "toured out". I am getting the message from the Inf guys on this board that this is actually a distortion of the facts: that RegF Inf soldiers are ready and waiting to go overseas. How did we end up with such a confused interpretation of the facts? Cheers.

I'll take a stab at this (don't quote me in the CAJ please). Perhaps our senior leaders are taking the press too seriously?

Ask any civy on the street, he/she will probably tell you that our forces are "overstretched" and "undermanned", buzzwords that have been bandied about on the idiot box because they make a good, half second headline. Rarely do the press make a distinction between Cbt arms and CSS,  terms that are meaningless to their intended audience. Everything I've heard <i> within the forces</i> seems to indicated that there is a glut of reg force Cbt arms (or at least infantry, can't speak for anyone else) troops itching to deploy, and it's the techies who are feeling the manpower shortage. Rank wise, the real cruch is not in pte/cpls, but in officers and sr NCOs, positions which cannot be adequately filled by reservists. Just look at the size of the PAT battallions on some of the bases.

Of course, one would hope that NDHQ doesn't rely soley on the CBC to measure the pulse of the forces, but, hey, some things that are blindingly obvious to me apparently are not.
 
Britney Spears: I don't really want to admit this, but I think you may not be far off the mark. Considering that unless we deploy with sticks and spears we will need CSS (and a a healthy chunk of them if we want to be fully self-sufficient and mission capable) what can we do about this imbalance? Use more Res in CSS?   Here's my take on that: we have three Svc Bns in our CBG and   most of them would have extreme difficulty producing any fully deployable CSS soldier with tradeskills eqiuvalent to an experienced   RegF CSS Cpl. Not a slag on our Res CSS soldiers-there are huge systemic problems in the Res CSS world, but IMHO a universal condition, except possibly in SQFT where they have a more coherent approach to training and emloying their Res CSS.

Cheers.
 
except possibly in SQFT where they have a more coherent approach to training and emloying their Res CSS.

Really?


If reserve Svc Bn's cannot provide deployable troops, then WTF are they good for? Flying kitchens on weekend excercises? I sure hope not, if the my last experience with those is anything to go by.

Since we've got so many R031s standing around, maybe they should be encouraged to remuster into the Svc Bns. A rather disproportionate number of reserve pay clerks I've dealt with sport metal wings and/or pathfinder torches, so its not imposible.
 
Some fire support for PBI, et al.:

The requirement for Reservists to have a previous tour for Afghanistan was not formally promulgated.  I know there are a few (politically motivated  >:D ?) pers that have made it on R2 without a mission.  I do know that for the CIMIC cell (where the bulk of the Reservists are concentrated), a previous tour - in a low threat theatre (Bos) - was mandatory.

Where does a Reservist get the "experience"?  Generally, work your way up, as PBI indicates.  Bosnia is still a good place to start before a "heavier" theatre and there are a lot of "any rank, any trade" positions.  BOREAS/BRONZE is now almost exclusively P Res, so there's no excuse - the Reg F has "been there, done that" ages ago.

As for CSS, I can only echo some of the comments.  A great deal of the problem has to do with the length of time it takes to qualify a Res F soldier in most of the CSS trades.  The Reg F can take a person off the street and make that person a vehicle tech in a year or two.  For a Res F vehicle tech, the qualification has, by the very nature of the trade (ie:  it cannot be watered down to mobilization specs, etc.) to take the equivalent time - one to two years, one summer at a time.  And that's just for a QL3 qualified soldier...try getting someone qualified higher!  For more technical trades - forget it!  What to do?  Well, recognizing civvy quals helps, but isn't the complete answer (just because a guy can fix a Chevy doesn't mean he can fix a LAV III)...  Beyond that, I'm not sure.

For the Reg F Inf guys:  I wouldn't be too worried, with NRF 06, PRTs, etc., coming up there'll be plenty to do.
 
Britney Spears: As Teddy Ruxpin has alluded to, the RegF CSS world, which is a purple world that until recently was not too motivated to do anything about the training issues facing the Res CSS community, has much to answer for with the highly unrealistic ideas about training Res CSS soldiers. The nonsense over HLVW wrecker operation is an example: we have three of these in our Bde, but until recently Res veh techs were not allowed to operate the technical functions on them. I could go on and on but I have seen enough in my time with a Res CBG to see that the Res Svc Bns are to a great extent victims of an apparently unthinking and unmotivated system. Cheers.
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
I do know that for the CIMIC cell (where the bulk of the Reservists are concentrated), a previous tour - in a low threat theatre (Bos) - was mandatory.
Why are there so few regulars in CIMIC?  (I believe there are only 3, the CO, a sgt and a mcpl)  I think we could do well in these possitions.
 
From the tone of this discussion it would appear that the prevailing "flavour of the day" emerging from America in the 90's had it completely bassackwards.  Instead of putting CSS types into the Reserves and filling the Regs with bayonets it would appear that the Regs are required as CSS types and the Reservists are best suited to supply bayonets (for one or maybe two tours, now and then, as they feel like it). Crikey I'm gonna get slagged ;D.

OK, kit needs maintenance, whether it is in the field, in garrison or in storage. Whether it is operated by Reservists or Regs.  I am willing to bet that most of the Technical skills that are missing are maintenance type skills and if I am not totally misunderstanding the tech world most of the tech trades are focussed on a piece of kit and the operator is expected to be able to service that kit (at least to some extent).  That would tend to draw out the education process and make techies harder to find.

Assuming this to be the case, in the civvy world your average "operator" hasn't got a clue about how to repair his kit - some don't even know how the thing works. How many here can describe how his/her cell phone, tv, refrigerator, computer, camera and car all work.  Precious few I would guess.

If what I suspect is true then would it help if the trades were reviewed and their skills split between those minimal skills necessary to operate the kit (often skills that most people pick up in everyday life after minimal training and 5 minutes with an instruction manual) and the complex skills necessary to repair kit.

If this were done then you could take your average civilian and relatively easily turn him/her into a truck driver (relatively I said) and focus him/her on learning how to become a soldier with small arms skills and knowledge of military procedures, protocols and SOPs.  Pretty quickly you have an effective contributor to the CF available from the Reserves.

Most people that join the Reserves, me included, do it/did it because they want to contribute but also because they want to do soldierly things and use soldierly stuff.  Soldierly stuff is Infantry Stuff, is Cavalry Stuff, is Arty Stuff.  Crawling in the mud, driving rugged looking vehicles in obnoxious places, and making big bangs..... all the time getting paid for it and enjoying the company of others that enjoy the same stuff.  Finding people to do that kind of stuff (riflemen, gunners, drivers - truck or tank) is relatively easy for the Reserves.  Finding somebody that wants to run an NBC decam station is hard and finding somebody wanting to repair a motherboard for minimum wage is impossible.

CSS needs to find a clear line between maintenance skills and operator skills.

Operator skills should be the easily trainable ones - ones that any average citizen can do without trying - but that will be honed by practice in a variety of environments.  These skills can be performed by Regs and Reservists, in garrison, on domestic ops or on expeditionary ops.

Maintenance skills are specialist skills and only full time personnel are capable of handling these and they have to be conducted, as noted in storage facilities, in garrison, on field exs, on domestic ops and on expeditionary ops.  That's an awful lot of locales.  It means an awful lot of techies.  Minimizing the demand for techies is critical.

Kit acquisition is one way to deal with this.  Acquired kit should not require a lot of training to operate (think in terms of your digital video-cam or DVD player - how many took a course to learn how to operate it).  Acquired kit should also be considered as first of of all disposable and, where expense is too great, swappable.  No repairs in the field should be the mantra.  Something breaks, replace it and send it out of the line to have it repaired if possible.  That means more money on kit and spares and more trucks but they are easier to come by than techies.  This I know. Because I spend time trying to build high tech plants that can be operated by mixed crews of Mexicans and Phillipinos working under American supervisors either at sea or on some god forsaken rock that requires a 40 min flying boat ride from the nearest dirt strip.  The technical support comes from people hired at 30,000 USD per year with a grade 10 education.  There may be a college trained engineering technician or two on staff.

Techies and Rifles (lets say gunners and drivers as well here) require two different streams.  

Rifles can be recruited for one, maybe two tours and then many of them would comfortably retire to a reserve unit and settle down to family life and a civvy job ready for the call.  Many others would find the job interesting and rewarding and make it their careers, full of the knowledge of what that career will entail and the impact it has on a "normal" life.  Mix that up with some down time and domestic assignments for training, as trainers, as support staff to reserve units (all of which requires the right balance between numbers and assignments) and you have functioning combat arms.

Some of those Rifles (the experienced ones) could be in line to do some first line serviceability evaluations after training and form the core of the field maintenance staff.

Techies by and large will have to be paid as civilians in order to compete with the civilian market.  Some techies can be convinced to come out and ply their trade for the good of the country,  for the thrill and excitement of foreign places, for the companionship of likeminded individuals, for the opportunity to do soldierly things, for the education....but by and large .... when the mortgage comes due.... they are going to be awfully tempted by the wages being paid in the civvy world.

The civvy world balances out the high cost of techies by hiring on demand, for a limited number of hours a week with not free clothes and grub.. but the money is better.

Thus my prescription..

As far as possible techie work should be civvy work.  Uniformed techie work should be all about replace not repair.  
Lots of plug'n'play spares on hand.
Kit that any reasonably intelligent civvy can operate.
A combat arms heavy reserve that has spent some time on tour but is "In Reserve" ready for call up at times of dire need, either domestically or occasionally (once in a generation) overseas.
A Regular Force recruited with an expectation of a life spent overseas and/or in constant training ready for immediate deployment.
Lots of training time.
Taskings and bodies matched to give adequate downtime.

Gaps in this formula to be covered by people in uniform.

Cheers.


 
As a side comment, my understanding of the maintenance system used in the US ARNG (don't know what USAR does..) is that units actually hold very little in the way of mission-specific vehicles or heavy equipment at their armouries. Most of it (I believe) is held at one or more state-run Mobilization And Training Equipment Sites (MATES) where the majority of the maintenance work is done by civilian employees who fix the kit between drill weekends. From talking to the ARNG battalion deployed here in Afgh (3/116 Inf Virginia ARNG) it seems that they have very little integral CSS (perhaps because they are designated "Light").

Our problem in adopting a system like this is geography: we are generally far more challenged by it than our ARNG brethren are: take our Bde for example: we cover an area from Thunder Bay, ON in the east to Prince Albert SK in the northwest. Our units in Thnder Bay face a 12 hour road trip to reach a Canadian Army base.

Cheers.
 
:cam:
Not to start anything that would violate opsec but I believe increases for any upcoming ops will involve higher numbers of Reg Cbt Arms (esp. Inf for Force Protection and Patrolling)
PRT based on Reg Inf Bn w/ Spt of Cbt Spt Arms and Integral CSS. This will include CIMIC based ResF unit and Civies from Dfait, etc. ResF units are being used to man less hostile areas in order to better task Reg units who have the experience and training to deal with these situations.
:warstory:
Many ResF pers have tours however the Reg pers are there to do the job. ResF are there to backfill when needed. :army:
 
Radop said:
Why are there so few regulars in CIMIC? (I believe there are only 3, the CO, a Sgt and a mcpl) I think we could do well in these possitions.

The CIMIC role has been tasked to the reserves, though Reg F members sometime fill posns when needed. On roto 3 there are only 4 CIMIC posns (all reservists); one tactical support team (1x Maj, 1xCapt, 1xWO, plus drivers) and a staff officer at KMNB, a big step down from roto 0/1, when there was a full platoon. CIMIC is a bit of an anomaly, it's not an MOC, but requires a lot of specialized training, and greatly depends on the member's interpersonal skills, it's definately not for everyone. No doubt many regulars could and have done well in the CIMIC role, but I suspect that after spending so much time and money training a reg f SNCO/Officer they would want to employ him in his trade of expertise, rather than re-train him for an additional job that a reservist could fill.

Cheers,
Mike
 
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