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Reserve Pilot Tac Hel Req

Loachman said:
I don't agree with you.

What does speed have to do with anything?

And are you saying that flying a Harvard II is the only way to learn how to do two or more things at once or set priorities?

I'm not saying it's the ONLY way to do it, but I think it is the way that will push you the most in that regard.  Not to mention that I personnaly find that 2 CFFTS is a good introduction to military flying.  I liked my time on the Slingsby, but there was nothing military in that course.

Question:  Would the PFT Extended course be taught by civilian instructors or military instructor?

Max
 
Loachman said:
We've done this for Jamaicans for decades.
I understand that PFT-E is a *new* course (i.e., not just new to the CF), but yes, that's the idea.

SupersonicMax said:
Question:  Would the PFT Extended course be taught by civilian instructors or military instructor?

I'd have to check, but I'm 99% certain that it is an extension of the Allied Wings contract (and uses AW facilities, aircraft, etc.), ergo civillian instructors (many of whom are ex-mil.).  IIRC, the main impetus behind the program was the lack of available slots at NFTC.

Getting back to the bigger point, while I certainly see some merit in the idea of being a well-rounded pilot (in the spirit of the whole Universality of Service - thing), it doesn't make a whole lot of practical or financial sense to be sending guys on multiple Phase III courses, regardless of how good (or bad) they might be ... wrt PFT-E specifically, I understand that Moose Jaw is very Jet-oriented (maybe you can correct me in a few weeks  ;D ), and while that's a great thing for future Hornet guys, I can see how it wouldn't necessarily be the best thing for everyone else.

Max, at this stage PFT-E is purely an option (& I was led to believe that should the course continue it would remain so) ... I'm sure we both know guys that are picking the Moose Jaw option who have no interest in going Fest Jet: they are just going so they'll get to fly the Harvard, which is cool and all, but maybe not in the best long term interests of the Air Force.
 
dapaterson said:
But why would we do that?  If the CF invests hundreds of thousands to train someone to fly a helicopter, why would we then send them back to school to learn to fly jets?  Let's get a return on those training dollars, vice spending hundreds of thousands more.  If Mr "I don't want to fly helicopters" decides to quit, he can go fly helicopters for a living on civvy street...

Tactical employment and management of aircraft (Officer work) differs so greatly between the communities that moving a pilot from one group to another creates problems and does not permit the individual to develop the necessary competencies to lead.  (Remember "Experience" as one of the pillars of professional development?)  Operating a vehicle does not equate to a requirement for a commissioned officer.

Perhaps I have too much of an Army mentality, where the bus driver is a Corporal - because he doesn't need to be an officer.  Imagine the Armoured corps as run by pilots: a Captain to command each tank, a Major to command the platoon, a Lieutenant-colonel as the second-in-command on the squadron, and a Colonel to command the squadron.  The Black hats seem to do all right with Majors commanding the squadrons, and Master Corporal/Sergeants commanding the tanks...

Don't sit there and try to tell me that it's so different between the infantry and the armoured, training wise. Everyone does Phase 2, or CAP or whatever it's called these days and remusters happen all the time. Where's the value in teaching an artillery or armoured officer how to do section attacks? Waste of time and money, why not just stream armoured officers right into an armoured vehicle, that's where they're going be employed, right? The only difference is that it's not a remuster if a pilot goes from helo to multi or anywhere else. There's far less paperwork.

Moose Jaw is no different, it's a common starting place for all pilots. I had a commercial airplane licence and an Aviation Diploma when I joined. If I had been told I would only fly helos without the chance of flying something else, I would have said "thanks, but no thanks", and I think plenty of other people would have too. I didn't join to fly helos, helos chose me and while I enjoy it now, I sure as shit didn't join to fly helos.

You're right, operating a vehicle does not equate to a requirement for a commission. However, the tactical employment of aircraft is not a corporal's job. Just because we're driving doesn't mean we're not making the decisions on weapons release, tactics to be employed or other things like that. Despite popular belief, we're more than drivers.  If you read the orders, an aircraft captain has the same authority over his aircraft as a ship's captain has over his ship. The driver of an AFV is not in command of that vehicle, there's quite a large difference between an aircraft captain and a LAV crew commander. So, no matter what the rank of the person on board the aircraft, the aircraft captain is in command wrt the flying and handling of the aircraft and it's safety. Even if Gen Hillier is on board my aircraft, I'm in command. A slight difference from an AFV commander, no?

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol2/ch103_e.asp#103.42

And as far as I'm concerned, experience is experience. Sure it takes time to build Crew Commanders, Aircraft Captains and Flight leads, but guys from different backgrounds provide a different perspective and possibly a better way of doing business.

Loachman said:
I don't agree with you.

What does speed have to do with anything?

I got 170 hours on the Tutor (the odd ED and a bunch of gear-puller trips and a Snowbird practice), and, while I'm glad that I had the opportunity to fly a tremendous little aircraft, none of it translated to what I did from the start of BHT on. It was a waste, from a military and economic point of view, of a year and a pile of money.

And are you saying that flying a Harvard II is the only way to learn how to do two or more things at once or set priorities?

I could do that long before I went to Portage on the Musketeer, thanks either to natural ability, or my Infantry training, or both.

That's the problem with your point of view. I had a commercial licence with an instrument rating, and I learned more than a thing or two wrt decision making when moving at 4 miles a minute. Things I don't think I would have learned if I had gone onto helos having never flown faster than 130 kts. What you learned in Moose Jaw obviously has some link to flying helos, I strongly disagree that it was a total waste of time and money. I found all kinds of links between the two, and I think I use far more techniques that I learned in Moose Jaw than techniques I learned in my 200+ hrs of bug smasher time.

Could you teach the Moose Jaw course on a slower platform? Who knows, my personal opinion is that I don't think you would get the same value out of a PFT-E as you would when teaching guys to think at 4 miles a minute.
 
Inch said:
Don't sit there and try to tell me that it's so different between the infantry and the armoured, training wise. Everyone does Phase 2, or CAP or whatever it's called these days and remusters happen all the time. Where's the value in teaching an artillery or armoured officer how to do section attacks? Waste of time and money, why not just stream armoured officers right into an armoured vehicle, that's where they're going be employed, right? The only difference is that it's not a remuster if a pilot goes from helo to multi or anywhere else. There's far less paperwork.

CAP is, as I recall, about 2 months, with no backlog.  Can the same be said for flight training?  Pilots moving from one platform to another is a waste of scare resources; building that "flexibility" into the system from day one just costs millions in additional funding.  Eliminating it would permit faster throughput - and in the words of a fairly senior guy in the CF "Sometime quantity has a quality all its own".

Remusters between the combat arms are not common (training failures aside); and, when they do occur, the individual does all the occupation-specific DP1 training.  There is no "combat arms common" DP1 for a year or so, followed by occupation-specific training - it's very different from the pilot model.

(some things snipped)

You're right, operating a vehicle does not equate to a requirement for a commission. However, the tactical employment of aircraft is not a corporal's job. Just because we're driving doesn't mean we're not making the decisions on weapons release, tactics to be employed or other things like that. Despite popular belief, we're more than drivers.  If you read the orders, an aircraft captain has the same authority over his aircraft as a ship's captain has over his ship. The driver of an AFV is not in command of that vehicle, there's quite a large difference between an aircraft captain and a LAV crew commander. So, no matter what the rank of the person on board the aircraft, the aircraft captain is in command wrt the flying and handling of the aircraft and it's safety. Even if Gen Hillier is on board my aircraft, I'm in command. A slight difference from an AFV commander, no?

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol2/ch103_e.asp#103.42

And I ask again:  Why does the captain of an a/c require a commission?  We have Sgts deciding when to employ 25mm chain guns and other armaments, in accordance with the rules of engagement. They determine the tactical employment of their vehicle, within the platoon context, within the company.  There is no need to have a commission to fulfil those functions.

Or even why is someone commanding four aircraft (once the next three arrive in Trenton) a lieutenant colonel?  Why is he even a commanding officer, vice an officer commanding?  If, as you say, a/c type isn't important, couldn't we have an air tn sqn with two flights of hercs and another of C-17s, all under a single LCol?

And as far as I'm concerned, experience is experience. Sure it takes time to build Crew Commanders, Aircraft Captains and Flight leads, but guys from different backgrounds provide a different perspective and possibly a better way of doing business.
 
dapaterson said:
And I ask again:  Why does the captain of an a/c require a commission?  We have Sgts deciding when to employ 25mm chain guns and other armaments, in accordance with the rules of engagement. They determine the tactical employment of their vehicle, within the platoon context, within the company.  There is no need to have a commission to fulfil those functions.

Or even why is someone commanding four aircraft (once the next three arrive in Trenton) a lieutenant colonel?  Why is he even a commanding officer, vice an officer commanding?  If, as you say, a/c type isn't important, couldn't we have an air tn sqn with two flights of hercs and another of C-17s, all under a single LCol?

A Sgt deciding when to employ his 25mm chain gun is based on what the Capt in the next vehicle over has decided. They determine the tactical employment of their vehicle based on what the Platoon commander has decided the vehicle will be used for.  They're not autonomous like aircraft can and tend to be, thus we're able to make the call ourselves since we've been given that authority, the same can't be said for all AFVs.

On top of the authority issue, we do live in the real world and the money issue is part of it too. You're not going to retain qualified helo pilots for long if you're only paying them 50-60 grand a year when on the civilian market it's much more lucrative. Despite what illusions people may have about patriotism and serving their country, Canada is still a capitalist society and the almighty dollar reigns supreme, especially when you're talking about a profession as hard to get into as pilot.

I agree on your last point, there's no reason two aircraft types can't be in the same sqn, SAR sqns have been doing it for years. Still though, other than the LCol and HQ types, you still would need to have duplicate Standards officers and technicians for the two aircraft types as well as a few other specialized jobs that are done within a particular aircraft type. That said however, it's not like the Air Force is unique in having a LCol command 100 people, just look at any reserve regiment CO.
 
Inch said:
... having a LCol command 100 people, just look at any reserve regiment CO.

Amen Brother!  Now that is a waste of money and training.  Why train an Officer corps to do a job that they will never carry out? 
 
Inch said:
A Sgt deciding when to employ his 25mm chain gun is based on what the Capt in the next vehicle over has decided. They determine the tactical employment of their vehicle based on what the Platoon commander has decided the vehicle will be used for.  They're not autonomous like aircraft can and tend to be, thus we're able to make the call ourselves since we've been given that authority, the same can't be said for all AFVs.

On top of the authority issue, we do live in the real world and the money issue is part of it too. You're not going to retain qualified helo pilots for long if you're only paying them 50-60 grand a year when on the civilian market it's much more lucrative. Despite what illusions people may have about patriotism and serving their country, Canada is still a capitalist society and the almighty dollar reigns supreme, especially when you're talking about a profession as hard to get into as pilot.

I agree on your last point, there's no reason two aircraft types can't be in the same sqn, SAR sqns have been doing it for years. Still though, other than the LCol and HQ types, you still would need to have duplicate Standards officers and technicians for the two aircraft types as well as a few other specialized jobs that are done within a particular aircraft type. That said however, it's not like the Air Force is unique in having a LCol command 100 people, just look at any reserve regiment CO.

I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree about the training regime for pilots, and agree on the futility of Lcols commanding 100 personnel, regardless of their environment.  (The issue of Reserve unit COs is a personal hobbyhorse)

I still disagree about the AFV/aircraft differences, as there is a fair degree of individual autonomy even within a platoon structure.

On the financial front, I think a case can be made that as we're providing valuable real-world skills in training a pilot, and paying them a living wage while l;earning to boot, there should not be an immediate expectation of comparable pay to the private sector.  Over time, yes, but in say a 6 year engagement for a flying Sgt, with 1 1/2 years of flight training, I wouldn't expect comparability to catch up until year 5 at the earliest.  Flight training is expensive to deliver; there has to be a reasonable return on investment.
 
dapaterson said:
I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree about the training regime for pilots, and agree on the futility of Lcols commanding 100 personnel, regardless of their environment.  (The issue of Reserve unit COs is a personal hobbyhorse)

I still disagree about the AFV/aircraft differences, as there is a fair degree of individual autonomy even within a platoon structure.

On the financial front, I think a case can be made that as we're providing valuable real-world skills in training a pilot, and paying them a living wage while l;earning to boot, there should not be an immediate expectation of comparable pay to the private sector.  Over time, yes, but in say a 6 year engagement for a flying Sgt, with 1 1/2 years of flight training, I wouldn't expect comparability to catch up until year 5 at the earliest.  Flight training is expensive to deliver; there has to be a reasonable return on investment.

There already is restricted release for pilots. Upon receiving your wings you enter a 7 year period of restricted release. I guess the CF figures that 7 years is a fair return on their investment. While the system may not be perfect, it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Pilots already have separate pay tables, I guess I just fail to see why two guys, both aircraft captains and doing the same job should be paid different. I'm sure we both agree that there has to be some pilot officers, considering the only Air Force officers that reach the level of General are either pilots or Navigators, and since there has to be pilot officers and paying two guys differently for doing the exact same job doesn't make a whole lot of sense, every pilot is an officer. As far as I see it anyhow. That's how it works else where in the world, in fact, all pilots are officers in every arm of every military that I can think of, minus the US Army and the Army Air Corps in the UK.

Recruiting is always going to be a problem, the CF needs to be the employer of choice. In order to attract talented people and then keep those that do take the plunge, it has to be fiscally worth it. That's the danger with giving people marketable skills, those same skills will draw a higher wage else where. It's unavoidable. If you look at the pilot pay tables there has been a shift in when you start making the "big bucks". Prior to 1998 you started quite high on the pay tables, now you start out making less than $100 over what a GSO makes, and Lt's no longer get pilot pay.

And for the record, you're not promoted past 2Lt until you get your wings and you're employable. So in effect, it is exactly like you mentioned above, you're earning a living wage while learning the trade, but as soon as you're employable and desirable to outside employers, your pay goes up.
 
dapaterson said:
On the financial front, I think a case can be made that as we're providing valuable real-world skills in training a pilot, and paying them a living wage while l;earning to boot, there should not be an immediate expectation of comparable pay to the private sector.  Over time, yes, but in say a 6 year engagement for a flying Sgt, with 1 1/2 years of flight training, I wouldn't expect comparability to catch up until year 5 at the earliest.  Flight training is expensive to deliver; there has to be a reasonable return on investment.

That's why our contract is 7 years after wings.  Yes, we are well paid during training, but our salary, for the kind of responsability we have (ie:  type of aircraft we fly) is much less than in the civy world.  How much a 777 Capt makes at Air Canada?  I think in the neighborhood of 200 000$ a year (base salary).  How much a C-17 Capt makes?  100 000$ a year if he has 10 years in the service...  Over the long run, we do not make THAT much money.

Max
 
Using Air Canada widebodies as an example is not the best comparison.  Many pilots are flying smaller airlines and making less money.  And look at the number of hours in their logs - they aren't walking in off the street, Cessna license in hand, and starting at that level.  They have also seen significant pay reductions in recent years as commercial air has undergone structural shifts.

I'd argue that excluding the US and UK from a discussion of Officers as pilots is like discussing macaroni and cheese but omitting Kraft Dinner.  If those two allies can make it work, why can't we?
 
dapaterson said:
Using Air Canada widebodies as an example is not the best comparison.  Many pilots are flying smaller airlines and making less money.  And look at the number of hours in their logs - they aren't walking in off the street, Cessna license in hand, and starting at that level.  They have also seen significant pay reductions in recent years as commercial air has undergone structural shifts.

I'd argue that excluding the US and UK from a discussion of Officers as pilots is like discussing macaroni and cheese but omitting Kraft Dinner.  If those two allies can make it work, why can't we?

dapaterson, my wife is a commercial pilot working for a small charter company.  She will be upgrading to Captain on a King Air (9 Passengers), flying mostly Medevacs and some charters.  She will then make about 70 000$ a year, which is about what a 1st year Capt Pilot will make in the Forces.  Her pay will just go up from there and she flies what we use for training. 

Yes, she has many more hours than most CF pilots that started when she did, but her work consists of taking off, 400' Post Take Off check, auto-pilot on. Make sure in cruise she won't get her IFR ticket violated then descend on the approach and disconnect the Auto Pilot at MDA or Decision Height.  Nothing to compare to what most CF pilots do. 

Comparing the 777 to the C-17 isn't unfair in my opinion.  Both are heavies.  The only differences are that the 777 carry passengers.  The C-17 crew might not carry pax, but they might get shot at.

Max
 
dapaterson said:
I'd argue that excluding the US and UK from a discussion of Officers as pilots is like discussing macaroni and cheese but omitting Kraft Dinner.  If those two allies can make it work, why can't we?

Only their armies make it work, the Navy, Marines and Air Forces have all officer pilots. We can't make it work for the army because of unification, we simply don't have an army air corps anymore and as a result, all pilots in the CF are officers.
 
An interesting article on pilot pay is online at http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2006/02/17/askthepilot174/print.html.

SupersonicMax:  The experience is a major differentiation.  And the fact that a first-year Capt in the CF makes the same suggests the CF is overpaying (frankly, I'd argue that the whole CF officer corps, myself included, is overpaid for the work we do, but that's another tangent...)

And I still see no reason why the CF can't have NCM pilots.  If Sgt Chuck Yeager was good enough to be a fighter jock in WW2, I don't see why his modern-day Canadian contemporaries can't hold the same rank.  Except for institutional inertia...


(And mods:  Can this tangent be split off into another thread?  We seem to have lost the bubble on "Reserve Tac Hel Pilots")
 
dapaterson said:
SupersonicMax:  The experience is a major differentiation.  And the fact that a first-year Capt in the CF makes the same suggests the CF is overpaying (frankly, I'd argue that the whole CF officer corps, myself included, is overpaid for the work we do, but that's another tangent...)

dapaterson:  Experience isn't only hours.  The industry really looks for the type of experience winged CF pilots have.  Majors (airlines it is) will not even look at your resume if you have less that 3-4000 hrs of flying time. However, if you're military, with 1000 hrs, they might take you. CF First Officers make more than beeing the Comms Bi*ch and the coffee server.

Our qualifications, training and military experience is worth much more than what civies get.  I don't know any school out there that offer basic traning (PPL equivalent) on a 9 million $, glass cockpit, 1100 HP turbo-prop airplane.  We're talking about a high performance aircraft.  You're lucky if you get your training on a Katana in the civy schools. We are VERY competitive for the civilian market. 

dapaterson said:
And I still see no reason why the CF can't have NCM pilots.  If Sgt Chuck Yeager was good enough to be a fighter jock in WW2, I don't see why his modern-day Canadian contemporaries can't hold the same rank.  Except for institutional inertia...

Pilots are more than operators.  I just finished 200 hrs of ground school (and that's only for BFT, more to come on advanced phases...) and it's a lot of things to know and you can get into big trouble very quickly if you don't know all the information you need to know and that only for the flying aspect.  And in a day to day pilot life, flying is secondary.  It's a given.  They are not evaluated on their PER for the amazing IF skills they have or the great overhead break he did last month.

Pilots employ a machine, it weapons and different tactics in order to accomplish an objective.  They rarely have your boss behind you when you have an unknown in flight.  Theyhave to take the decision themself and in some circumstance, the decision could be life or death.  Not to mention that most pilot will eventually become flight leaders and such and will actually lead people in flight.

According to your reasonning, you are saying that any officer in the CF (except maybe at the general level) could be an NCM. 

Max
 
There probably is no reason why some CF pilots in some roles could not be NCMs, but- why bother?  Sure- some militaries use NCMs as helo pilots.  No military that I am aware of uses NCMs as pilots of fixed wing heavy assets or fighters (I stand to be corrected when evidence to the contrary is presented). We can sit around and lament the loss of the Army Air Corps (and Fleet Air Arm, too, for that matter).  The simple fact of the matter is that we are never going back that way.  Ever.  Therefore- CF pilots are going to remain officers- all of them.

Remember this- I am a Navigator and have no dog in this fight.  ;D
 
Inch said:
Don't sit there and try to tell me that it's so different between the infantry and the armoured, training wise. Everyone does Phase 2, or CAP or whatever it's called these days and remusters happen all the time. Where's the value in teaching an artillery or armoured officer how to do section attacks? Waste of time and money, why not just stream armoured officers right into an armoured vehicle, that's where they're going be employed, right?

It's been a couple of decades since I did Phase II Infantry, Portage, or Moose Jaw so things may have changed however Phase II involved those things that were pretty common across the board, ie drill, first aid, weapons, fieldcraft, leadership skills in stressful situations, and simple small-unit tactics. As this course was run by Armour, Artillery, and Infantry schools independently, there may have been some arm-specific training given in each but I do not know for sure. Phase II would equate more to PFS, whereas Phases III and IV - definitely arm-specific, would relate more to BFT and OTU.

And anybody in the field should possess the skills and knowledge imparted in Phase II - Combat Arms, Support Arms, and Tac Hel as well. Operationally, that would be far more valuable than zipping about in a fast aeroplane for a year.

Inch said:
The only difference is that it's not a remuster if a pilot goes from helo to multi or anywhere else. There's far less paperwork.

And far less training time. Besides, how many remusters/reclassifications do you see between Combat Arms components. None at all? They're usually to Int of P Aff or technical trades.

Inch said:
Moose Jaw is no different, it's a common starting place for all pilots.

Other than simply "because it is", why? I'd suggest that, as it precedes Moose Jaw and is also common, that Portage is a more valid "common starting place". And, other than for cost effectiveness, I see no need for a "common starting place" at all. The US Armed Forces have many "starting places".

Inch said:
If I had been told I would only fly helos without the chance of flying something else, I would have said "thanks, but no thanks", and I think plenty of other people would have too. I didn't join to fly helos, helos chose me and while I enjoy it now, I sure as crap didn't join to fly helos.

I did, and if anybody had told me that I'd have had to fly seized-wing...

If we recruited people into specific flying streams, ie helicopter, multi-engine, and jet, I'm sure that there would have been slots available to you and those like you in all categories as well.

Inch said:
You're right, operating a vehicle does not equate to a requirement for a commission. However, the tactical employment of aircraft is not a corporal's job. Just because we're driving doesn't mean we're not making the decisions on weapons release, tactics to be employed or other things like that. Despite popular belief, we're more than drivers.  If you read the orders, an aircraft captain has the same authority over his aircraft as a ship's captain has over his ship. The driver of an AFV is not in command of that vehicle, there's quite a large difference between an aircraft captain and a LAV crew commander. So, no matter what the rank of the person on board the aircraft, the aircraft captain is in command wrt the flying and handling of the aircraft and it's safety. Even if Gen Hillier is on board my aircraft, I'm in command. A slight difference from an AFV commander, no?

The tactical employment of an AFV is not a corporal's job, either, under normal circumstances. It's the crew commander's, and he is a highly experienced Sergeant or possibly Master Corporal. He's not driving, either, although he may have done earlier in his career. You could compare a fighter pilot to a unified driver/crew commander, but the new lone fighter pilot is still operating as a wingman and making no decisions beyond those that involve the safe operation of his vehicle only. He doesn't decide whom to shoot or bomb unless his lead is gone.

The crew commander has pretty much the same authority over the occupants of his vehicle as an aircraft captain has. There's really not a lot of difference, and, where one exists, it's generally because a generic aircraft could be operating at many thousands of feet thousands of miles from anywhere and there is no other authority. My powers as aircraft captain aside, I do not decide everything pertaining to my mission any more than a crew commander does and my responsibility includes carrying out that mission to the best of my ability. If I am flying General Hillier around, and he sees something on the ground that he wishes to inspect closer and I refuse to land and let him off, then it would be interesting to see whose authority trumps whose. Orders or lack thereof aside, if General Hillier goes out on a patrol in the back of a LAV, he's not likely to usurp the crew commander's authority and responsibility for a whole list of reasons. LGen Leslie likes to go out on patrols on exercises, and did when he was in Kabul, and I have heard no tales of him pushing his weight around.

In most battlefield helicopters, there is an aircraft captain (crew commander) and first officer (driver). The sole difference in that regard between the rotary-winged vehicle and the tracked or wheeled vehicle is that the rotary-winged vehicle has a second set of controls so the crew commander can wiggle the sticks when necessary. When engaged in a tactical mission, however, the copilot should be doing that while the crew commander/aircraft captain should be handling the maps and radios and thinking and deciding and directing. It's hard to keep track of what's going on in a fluid battlefield while trying to dodge wires and cows.

In its application to the battlefield, the helicopter is simply a vehicle with a different method of mobility.

There is no requirement for a commission for either the senior driver or the junior one, for any reason.

Inch said:
And as far as I'm concerned, experience is experience. Sure it takes time to build Crew Commanders, Aircraft Captains and Flight leads, but guys from different backgrounds provide a different perspective and possibly a better way of doing business.

And sometimes don't have a clue, or try to impose things that worked well in their previous communities but don't in their new one.

I've seen too many ex-fighter pilots tossed into leadership positions in 10 TAG do just that in the past to see that as any benefit. Only one exception comes to mind.

Now, a cross-trainee from the Combat Arms into Tac Hel is gold unless he's a numpty to begin with. There's far more applicable knowledge and experience there than there is in a fighter pilot with an amended driver's licence. That same experience wouldn't be so helpful in other flying communities, though.

Inch said:
That's the problem with your point of view. I had a commercial licence with an instrument rating, and I learned more than a thing or two wrt decision making when moving at 4 miles a minute. Things I don't think I would have learned if I had gone onto helos having never flown faster than 130 kts.

But how valuable, really, were they? I cannot think of a single thing that I learned in Moose Jaw related to speed and altitude and flying upside-down on occasion that had any bearing on anything that I ever did afterwards. Nothing. Thousands upon thousands of military helicopter pilots around the globe, over many decades, seem to have done quite well without their nations buring up bazillions on zipping around in little neato jets and turboprops.

Inch said:
What you learned in Moose Jaw obviously has some link to flying helos,

Not obviously. Quite the contrary.

Inch said:
I strongly disagree that it was a total waste of time and money. I found all kinds of links between the two, and I think I use far more techniques that I learned in Moose Jaw than techniques I learned in my 200+ hrs of bug smasher time.

Those could have been taught in more economical ways on more suitable course, I'm sure.

Inch said:
Could you teach the Moose Jaw course on a slower platform? Who knows, my personal opinion is that I don't think you would get the same value out of a PFT-E as you would when teaching guys to think at 4 miles a minute.

We are needlessly over-training, especially as pilot training relates to the Tac Hel community. That is my lane and my concern. Other communities vary, and I will not argue so strongly in their affairs.
 
Inch said:
A Sgt deciding when to employ his 25mm chain gun is based on what the Capt in the next vehicle over has decided. They determine the tactical employment of their vehicle based on what the Platoon commander has decided the vehicle will be used for.  They're not autonomous like aircraft can and tend to be, thus we're able to make the call ourselves since we've been given that authority, the same can't be said for all AFVs.

There is extremely little difference between battlefield helicopters and AFVs in their tactical employment. An AH company commander maintains similar control over what the individual aircraft are doing in his company when they are engaging an enemy. RAH66 allowed him to do that technologically - he could box off individual killzones and transmit them to all of his aircraft so that none could engage in another's KZ without his specific authority, in order to prevent multiple engagements of one target by several aircraft.

A Sea King may be autonomous, and an Aurora, but a Griffon or an Apache on the battlefield is not.

Neither is a fighter.

And an AC on No 2 helicopter can only make decisions within the authority given to him by his lead or higher.

Our Sergeants are no dumber than any British Army Air Corps Sergeant who wears wings. Our Sergeants are no dumber than I am with my commission. A commission by itself confers no special abilities or smarts.

We select for smarts and natural ability and train for special abilities.

Inch said:
On top of the authority issue, we do live in the real world and the money issue is part of it too. You're not going to retain qualified helo pilots for long if you're only paying them 50-60 grand a year when on the civilian market it's much more lucrative. Despite what illusions people may have about patriotism and serving their country, Canada is still a capitalist society and the almighty dollar reigns supreme, especially when you're talking about a profession as hard to get into as pilot.

That's why we have spec pay and aircrew allowance. Besides, there are not that many helicopter jobs out there that lure people away anyway. Airlines pay much more than any air force, naval aviation component. or army flying corps does yet many elect to continue to serve. Money, for lots of people, is not the driving factor.

Inch said:
I agree on your last point, there's no reason two aircraft types can't be in the same sqn, SAR sqns have been doing it for years. Still though, other than the LCol and HQ types, you still would need to have duplicate Standards officers and technicians for the two aircraft types as well as a few other specialized jobs that are done within a particular aircraft type. That said however, it's not like the Air Force is unique in having a LCol command 100 people, just look at any reserve regiment CO.

In the Kiowa and Twin Huey day, most Tac Hel Squadrons operated two types as well, but that was a peacetime concept. In wartime, groupings would have been doctrinal and we trained that way on major exercises. Kiowa Squadrons would locate closely behind the FEBA as our employment was far more intimate and continual. UTTH Squadrons would locate about 50 KM back. MTH and Maint Sqns would be even further back. Under those circumstances, mixing of types and misions was completely impractical.

Squadrons vary in manning, and many (Tac Hel at least) are over 100 people. A doctrinal wartime Griffon squadron is twenty-four aircraft with a crewing ration of 2:1 or higher to permit 24/7 operations, planning, and liaison with supported units. That's 96 pilots and 48 flight engineers alone.
 
Squadrons vary in manning, and many (Tac Hel at least) are over 100 people. A doctrinal wartime Griffon squadron is twenty-four aircraft with a crewing ration of 2:1 or higher to permit 24/7 operations, planning, and liaison with supported units. That's 96 pilots and 48 flight engineers alone.

LM, the big 3 are all pushing 300...

There are points for, and points against NCMs as pilots.  The US example is not an analogy because the US Army WO1/WO2/CW3/CW4/CW5 aviators have no equivalency in the CF.  There are also points to be made for "specialist aircrew" (capped at Major / SqnLdr) who will not progress through Command - like in the RAF.  In the end, Canada uses what appears to work best for it...both cases have been made in the past, and neither supported, for whatever reasons folks would like to speculate about.

Cheers
G2G
 
Inch said:
I guess I just fail to see why two guys, both aircraft captains and doing the same job should be paid different. I'm sure we both agree that there has to be some pilot officers, considering the only Air Force officers that reach the level of General are either pilots or Navigators, and since there has to be pilot officers and paying two guys differently for doing the exact same job doesn't make a whole lot of sense, every pilot is an officer. As far as I see it anyhow. That's how it works else where in the world, in fact, all pilots are officers in every arm of every military that I can think of, minus the US Army and the Army Air Corps in the UK.

Why pay two guys who are doing a crew commander job any differently simply based upon the method of mobility?

I don't see any complaints coming from British Army NCO pilots or US Army WO pilots that they're being paid less than their zoomie counterparts.

Yes, there has to be some pilot officers - Flight Commanders, Squadron Commanders, their deputies, Ops Officers, and HQ staff types.

Officers exist to lead and exercise command over more than a crew anywhere other than air forces. There is no need for every pilot to hold a commission to command a crew, let alone drive.

Australia and New Zealand also have NCO pilots, at least. And one must also take into account that many armies have different opinions regarding NCOs and Officers. In many, officers are professionals and everybody else is a conscripted amateur. Under those circumstances, putting a two-year-term conscript through pilot training definitely makes no sense.

R
Inch said:
ecruiting is always going to be a problem, the CF needs to be the employer of choice. In order to attract talented people and then keep those that do take the plunge, it has to be fiscally worth it. That's the danger with giving people marketable skills, those same skills will draw a higher wage else where. It's unavoidable. If you look at the pilot pay tables there has been a shift in when you start making the "big bucks". Prior to 1998 you started quite high on the pay tables, now you start out making less than $100 over what a GSO makes, and Lt's no longer get pilot pay.

And for the record, you're not promoted past 2Lt until you get your wings and you're employable. So in effect, it is exactly like you mentioned above, you're earning a living wage while learning the trade, but as soon as you're employable and desirable to outside employers, your pay goes up.

Check the starting pay of airline pilots and what most have to go through to get even that, which is why I elected not to do that when I left the Reg F. It's not exactly a secure and stable job environment, either. Air Canada let everybody with less than thirteen years seniority go back in the mid-nineties when the industry took a down-turn, and airlines are always going TU. Most commercial helicopter pilots spend more time in the bush than Tac Hel pilots, and make less, unless things have changed dramatically over the last decade. The type of flying makes a big difference to some people as well. There are few commercial helicopter jobs that have any appeal to me whatsoever. I did two police helicopter trials and would have stuck with that had either gone permanent - but would also have stayed on as a reservist anyway. Money isn't everything to many pilots, which is no different in the Army or Navy either. Most military officers could make far more in civilian fields if they chose to go that route.

Inch said:
And for the record, you're not promoted past 2Lt until you get your wings and you're employable. So in effect, it is exactly like you mentioned above, you're earning a living wage while learning the trade, but as soon as you're employable and desirable to outside employers, your pay goes up.

We've had Captains show up at our OTUs who've hung around waiting between Wings Grad in Portage and then. The delay was so long that they got promoted even though they weren't "employable", in my definition anyway.
 
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