Replacing the Subs

[Navy_Pete]

Step 1: Set up a yard in a politically volatile riding and get massive subsidies to do so.

Step 2: ???

Step 3: Profit!

Plot twist; the yard is on a landlocked body of water, so can also subsidize heavy transport and fit in one or more assembly yards! All KICs, all the time! #IRBsforall #SewerTubeConvoy2060 #PorkBarrelingisThinkingSmall

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I support the NSS for surface ships, but not for subs, neither the US or UK have conventional powered sub designs. The only ones with experience in larger non-nuke subs are the Dutch and the Japanese. Both are in the process of replacing their subs, we should be tagging along and observing the process if possible.

 

[dapaterson]

Plot twist; the yard is on a landlocked body of water, so can also subsidize heavy transport and fit in one or more assembly yards! All KICs, all the time! #IRBsforall #SewerTubeConvoy2060 #PorkBarrelingisThinkingSmall

You're hired

 

[Navy_Pete]

I support the NSS for surface ships, but not for subs, neither the US or UK have conventional powered sub designs. The only ones with experience in larger non-nuke subs are the Dutch and the Japanese. Both are in the process of replacing their subs, we should be tagging along and observing the process if possible.

Would be a bit strange history wise, but German has some subs meant for export, and I think has things like AIP or fuel cell technology.

The nice thing generally there would be a standard model, used by a number of other countries is a larger user base to work with on things and hopefully makes things like obsolescence easier with more people working on it. And if we develop some kind of fix for something using some kind of Canadian technology gives whatever company that came up with it some easy export opportunities.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Would be a bit strange history wise, but German has some subs meant for export, and I think has things like AIP or fuel cell technology.

The nice thing generally there would be a standard model, used by a number of other countries is a larger user base to work with on things and hopefully makes things like obsolescence easier with more people working on it. And if we develop some kind of fix for something using some kind of Canadian technology gives whatever company that came up with it some easy export opportunities.

The German export sub and their ship building has not been without trouble, Subs were rejected and had to go back to the yard for repairs, frigates with a list and for awhile the entire German sub fleet tied to the dock due to lack of spare parts. The Japanese are currently planning to replace their Sōryū class with newer subs, perhaps we can lease them while we dither.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Well, for sure, but I think gives a bit of insight into how difficult building subs are if German engineers are struggling.

I would just be happy if we didn't end up with another batch of one offs no one else in the world is using that do the job safely.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The German export sub and their ship building has not been without trouble, Subs were rejected and had to go back to the yard for repairs, frigates with a list and for awhile the entire German sub fleet tied to the dock due to lack of spare parts. The Japanese are currently planning to replace their Sōryū class with newer subs, perhaps we can lease them while we dither.

The Japanese subs would be pristine…

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Japanese subs would be pristine…

Very much so, but getting the fishy smell out of them would be hard.

 

[GK .Dundas]

That and translating...well everything. And as well they use a completely different weapons system and weapons.
Mind you it would be within our range of behaviour so to speak.
We've certainly got a history of it.

 

[JMCanada]

Can a new conventional submarine smooth Australia’s transition to a nuclear-powered fleet? | The Strategist

Why not joining the Australians and purchase together?
IMHO the submarine propulsion should have AIP powered by Ballard's fuell-cells and French DCNS diesel reformer (called FC2G) to produce Hydrogen for the FC. It should also include US combat systems.
German storage of hydrogen as metal hydrides would struggle to power an oceanic SS beyond 3 weeks at 4 knots.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

The Summer issue of the Starshell (official magazine of the Naval Association of Canada) is dedicated to Submarine issues affecting Canada. Here is the magazines table of contents:

• Submarines in Canada: A Tortuous History Captain(N) [Ret'd] Norman Jolin
• Canada's Future Submarine Force: Strategic Requirements Dr. Jeff Collins
• Canadian Political Leadership and the Next Canadian Submarine Dr.Rob Huebert
• Canada's Critical Submarine Requirements Commodore [Ret'd] Jamie Clark
• The Modern Threat Environment and Canada's Future Submarine Rear Admiral Chris Robinson
• The Under-Ice Environment as a Strategic Space Dr.Adam Lajeunesse & Tim Choi
• Submarine Procurement: Widening the Aperture of Options Vice Admiral [Ret'd] Robert Davidson

The complete magazine can be here.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Can a new conventional submarine smooth Australia’s transition to a nuclear-powered fleet? | The Strategist

Why not joining the Australians and purchase together?
IMHO the submarine propulsion should have AIP powered by Ballard's fuell-cells and French DCNS diesel reformer (called FC2G) to produce Hydrogen for the FC. It should also include US combat systems.
German storage of hydrogen as metal hydrides would struggle to power an oceanic SS beyond 3 weeks at 4 knots.

Oddly enough the Japanese might be moving away from AIP

From wiki:

The eleventh Sōryū-class submarine (Ōryū) is the first Japanese submarine in the fleet to mount lithium-ion batteries. The JS Ōryū was given a budget of ¥64.3 billion (equivalent to ¥65.55 billion or US$601.3 million in 2019)[8] under the 2015 Japanese Defense Budget.[9]

Lithium-ion batteries have almost double the electric storage capacity of traditional lead-acid batteries, and by not only replacing them in the existing battery storage areas but adding to the already large battery capacity by also filling the huge space (several hundred tons displacement) inside the hull previously occupied by the AIP Stirling engines and their fuel tanks with these new batteries, the amount of (more powerful) batteries carried overall is massive. This has improved the underwater endurance significantly and is felt will be an advantage over the slow recharge capability of the AIP system.

In any event, JMSDF believes that lithium-ion is the way forward and intends to 'trial' this new system and compare it to the previous AIP system for operational effectiveness.

 

[CBH99]

The German export sub and their ship building has not been without trouble, Subs were rejected and had to go back to the yard for repairs, frigates with a list and for awhile the entire German sub fleet tied to the dock due to lack of spare parts. The Japanese are currently planning to replace their Sōryū class with newer subs, perhaps we can lease them while we dither.

That's genius actually. Kind of like the 'used Aussie F-18 play, but it'll make sense & the Canadian Forces get what they actually want...

And sell the idea by letting the government know they can kick the can down the road for another party to deal with. Subs are expensive after all.

"But in the meantime, why don't we lease some of these used ones?"

 

[CBH99]

Well, for sure, but I think gives a bit of insight into how difficult building subs are if German engineers are struggling.

I would just be happy if we didn't end up with another batch of one offs no one else in the world is using that do the job safely.

Ummmmm... you mean off the shelf, not an orphan fleet, not heavily modified, and used by our allies?

Yeah we don't do that here...

 

[JMCanada]

Oddly enough the Japanese might be moving away from AIP
(...)

In any event, JMSDF believes that lithium-ion is the way forward and intends to 'trial' this new system and compare it to the previous AIP system for operational effectiveness.

Well, that's all true, but here's the dilemma between Power (kW) and Energy (kWh).

Batteries can provide a bulk of power at any moment (some MW), to propel the boat at max. speed. But their energy storage capacity is lower compared to the AIP. For instance, the S-80 submarine batteries are in the range of 10-12 MWh, while their AIP capacity would provide something in the range of 70-90 MWh. However AIP, as being implemented in submarines, can only provide limited power, typically in the range of 200-300 kW.

With LiFP batteries (that's the safest Li-ion technology for submarines) the energy can be doubled (grossly speaking). Let's take then 20-24 MW for the S-80 case, with similar dimensions to those of the Soryu. The Stirling engines do also take up a lot of space compared to the fuell cells (FC), and the oxygen requirements are also about double of that required for the fuel cells for the same energy, that is, Stirling efficiency in the use of O2 is about half of the FC. Therefore the Oryu may have reached (and this is just speculation) some 40-50 MWh by using both Lithium batteries and the space previously devoted to the Stirling engines and O2 storage filled with more Li-batteries. Still about half the energy it could get with an AIP.

The point is in the concept of operations. For Japan (and S_Korea as well) I guess the batteries make more sense. Not being far from their "own waters", the submarines may stay 1-2 weeks on station and still keep power and energy enough to quickly go back to their controlled waters and then surface or use the snorkel to replenish the batteries.

For Canada, and also for Australia, I guess, it might be better to have larger amounts of energy stored, that is longer permanence on station or capability to transit longer distances in-and-out of the "operations theatre", or even transit under the Arctic ice.

... but that is only my armchair opinion.

 

[Good2Golf]

JMC, spot on - the P vs E perspective is an important lens to look at requirements. Not sure if Canada would consider AIP as a necessity if trying to do a budget ice-‘capable’ boat, but if that’s ruled out for any number of valid reasons, then it would be interesting to see how the longer ‘slow and silent’ of AIP vs ‘faster at the price of a bit more noise’ calculus would go, re an SSK(G?) Canadian mission set.

 

[FSTO]

We'll get what we get. If that.

As outlined in the Starshell:
Canadian leaders are unlikely to be drawn into any meaningful understanding of the dynamics of the modern underwater warfare environment.

 

[Underway]

The Japanese subs would be pristine…

The head room though...

Spoke to a few British sailors on the Tide Class when the QE came to Halifax. they were built by Korean yards. One of the disadvantages was that they used Korean average heights for everything. There were a number of spaces where British sailors felt a little... claustrophobic.

 

[Weinie]

The head room though...

Spoke to a few British sailors on the Tide Class when the QE came to Halifax. they were built by Korean yards. One of the disadvantages was that they used Korean average heights for everything. There were a number of spaces where British sailors felt a little... claustrophobic.

I would be fine.

 

[dapaterson]

I would be fine.

Well, as long as we get you a step stool.