Replacing the Subs

[RDBZ]

Lets be very careful with the direction that this thread is heading.

In my career, I have worked against a Type 209, several LA Class SSNs, a Virginia Class SSN and 2 out of our 4 Victoria Class SSKs.

In order of difficulty They gave me (easiest to hardest), they were:

Type 209
Virginia Class
LA Class
Victoria Class

Some of had it had to do with the structure of the exercises (the poor Type 209 was forced to be a staked goat). A lot of it has to do with the skill of the particular Captain and the water conditions of the day.

I think I just plain got lucky on the Virginia (BTW, in ASW, I will take luck any day of the week). But, consistently, I have had my butt handed to me by the Victoria Class boats. I think they are both pretty quiet (or quiet enough) and generally very well driven.

Why would a boat try to avoid detection in all exercises?  Might the objective be centred on training the boat's crew in countering the ship's or MPA's attack, or the ship or MPA crew in dealing with a boat that has been detected?  Would other navies, even if "friendly", necessarily want to reveal the performance of their boats, including sensors, to the RCN or others?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The fact is, they don't avoid detection in all situations on all exercises.  There are detection opportunities so the, in our case, MPA can do RADAR, MAD, sono work, etc and then there are times where we have to break contact for XX minutes, then go in and try to re-acquire.  As the exercise progresses, the missions get harder with no mandated detection opportunities and you do the best you can to find the boat, and the boat does everything it can to avoid detection and accomplish the mission.  Sometimes it's MPA against a sub, sometimes you're tasked to a surface force and working with/for them, sometimes you are working with maritime helicopters.  It's pretty dynamic and beneficial training IMO. 

That is one example of how an exercise might go from, based on one specific exercise I've done a few times.  I'm quite reluctant to even discuss training exercises in any detail to be honest, so that is about the extent of what I'm comfortable saying about the subj's you've brought up.

Some info is shared between some nations (I won't discuss want info, or with who on this forum) and some isn't even shared across environments within the CAF. 

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I firmly believe that we should be looking to the replacement of our Victoria class submarines.  They are Canada's only true Strategic Military Asset.  What should we get to replace them?  Honestly, we should buy from someone else's production line, 4-6 subs, whatever we can legitimately afford so that we can operate at least one on each coast, with the others in a supportable training/maintenance cycle.

I would go with the SAAB A26. Seems to be one of the most modern SSKs out there. And the Swedes have already ordered two. Also, the A26 comes in three variants: a coastal versions; a mid-range; and, a long range ocean version.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Japan should have something new in service by the time Canada makes the decision:  https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2019/july/7250-japan-begins-development-of-its-next-gen-attack-submarines-the-29ss.html

 

[daftandbarmy]

It's not just that simple though.  Ships are seen, which seems obvious but that means that there is some sort of diplomatic or sovereignty aspect to it.  Subs' movements are definitely not talked about until they show up somewhere, while the Public Affairs Office has tons of pictures/video about what the ships are doing while underway. 

While it may be more cost-effective (I'm not sure but let's say yes), the offset is that Joe Public will see less of the fleet and the RCN will be forgotten even more than it is already.  In a more political sense, surface vessels can be used for humanitarian assistance, search and rescue, etc.; not so easily done with subs.

So what you're saying is...

... we need a submarine equivalent of the 'Snowbirds', right?  ;D

 

[Uzlu]

In addition to the Attack-class, 29SS, and A26 Oceanic (Extended Range), another possibility might be the KSS-III Batch-III.

 

[Journeyman]

... we need a submarine equivalent of the 'Snowbirds', right?  ;D

Yes, they're contributing immensely to getting the CF-18 replacement.  :nod: 

Seriously, I think one of the better airshow participants for the fighter replacement was the F-22.  It did amazing things.... and then a Hornet came on -- "yes folks, the CF-18 is going to fly left to right....and then… right to left."

/tangent

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Yes, they're contributing immensely to getting the CF-18 replacement.  :nod: 

Seriously, I think one of the better airshow participants for the fighter replacement was the F-22.  It did amazing things.... and then a Hornet came on -- "yes folks, the CF-18 is going to fly left to right....and then… right to left."

/tangent

Well, the wings would probably snap off if they tried anything else so there is that.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Meanwhile in Europe--one assumes this sub design for Baltic/NorthSea, Mediterranean and not open ocean.:

Italy matches French naval tie-up with German sub partnership

Italian state shipyard Fincantieri and its French counterpart Naval Group signed a long-planned deal in June to create a joint venture to build and market naval vessels, with a “European patrol corvette” in the works.

But away from the limelight, Italy’s long-standing cooperation with Germany’s naval industry to build submarines is picking up speed with news that Fincantieri will build four more U-212 submarines for the Italian Navy under license from Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems.

With four already in service, that will bring to a total of eight the U-212 boats Italy has built in partnership with Germany, and the next batch is expected to be an updated version.

Known as the U-212A Near Future Submarine, or NFS, the next four subs will feature a large amount of new technology supplied by Italian industry, further blending Italian and German know-how and proving that integration of the European naval industry is not just an Italo-French affair [emphasis added].

“The main design is similar to the earlier submarines to keep logistics costs down, but there has been a lot of work with Italian industry on upgrading capabilities, which will also help improve the country’s industrial base,” an Italian defense source said.

This year’s Italian defense budget, which was published this month, claims the overall cost of four NFS vessels will be €2.35 billion (U.S. $2.65 billion) [emphasis added], while the source said the contract with Fincantieri for the first pair would be signed by year’s end.

The signing would put an end to French reports that Naval Group is informally pitching its Scorpene attack submarine to Italy in hopes Rome considers switching from the U-212.

The Italian submarine Salvatore Todaro prepares to pull into port at Naval Station Mayport, Fla,, in 2008. Italian shipbuilder Fincantieri could build four more of the 212-type boats under license from Germany's Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems. (U.S. Navy)

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/07/22/italy-matches-french-naval-tie-up-with-german-sub-partnership/

More:
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/u212a-todaro-class-submarines/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

1,830 tons submerged a small sub, good for the Med

 

[Cloud Cover]

The drivers window is a bit small.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The drivers window is a bit small.

I thought that was an eye patch (arrrrrr!)

 

[Retired AF Guy]

In addition to the Attack-class, 29SS, and A26 Oceanic (Extended Range), another possibility might be the KSS-III Batch-III.

Here's Canada with the second longest coastline and we only have four subs, while S.Korea (size of Newfoundland?) is planning buying nine. I jus shake my head sometimes.

 

[YZT580]

but we don't have China and North Korea as neighbours

 

[Cloud Cover]

Outside of the Korean ships, is there another SSK that has VLS tubes?

Never mind: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/china-has-built-the-biggest-baddest-conventional-submarine-18629

 

[Retired AF Guy]

but we don't have China and North Korea as neighbours

True.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Israel subs have large tubes for launching cruise missiles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin-class_submarine

 

[daftandbarmy]

but we don't have China and North Korea as neighbours

Speaking of which, it looks like NoKo has up to 86 subs...

https://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/north-korea-submarine-capabilities/

 

[dimsum]

Speaking of which, it looks like NoKo has up to 86 subs...

https://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/north-korea-submarine-capabilities/

Yeah, but if they're super old and super loud, any ASW asset worth their salt will be able to detect and take them out pretty quick.  Also, who knows what their actual readiness status is.

 

[Cloud Cover]

You might still need 50-60 functioning torpedoes or missiles to deal with the ones that do work!