Replacing the Subs

[YZT580]

Too small a crew with too much at stake where too much can go wrong really, really quick to permit the potential for a disgruntled officer.  As well, if he/she moves back to a watch keepers position they effectively block that position permanently for training an up and coming candidate who may be successful.  Up or out may sound harsh but in a small unit it is the only way.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I've never understood why you had to give up your dolphins if you don't become Command-qualified.  It's not like all of a sudden your expertise just evaporated. 

I wonder if any surface ship CO-candidate has ever failed their command course, and if so, got kicked out of the trade (which is essentially what it is).

My understanding is you don't give up your Dolphins but your days underwater by that point are over. 

Kind of makes sense, if you are doing Perisher that means you've already probably served a D-Level and possibly as the XO so there is really nowhere else to go.  Hardly a vote of confidence for the Officer in question.

I've also heard that a Canadian Officer has never failed the Perisher Course.  That's not a coincidence.  From what I have heard, some of the other countries throw bodies at it and see what sticks while we hand pick ours that go.

It's probably just a numbers thing as some other countries have had far more submarines than we have had in service.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Most allied navies generally don't have that many operational subs outside of UK and US.

https://www.globalfirepower.com/navy-submarines.asp

 

[MarkOttawa]

Colin P:

Most allied navies generally don't have that many operational subs outside of UK and US.
https://www.globalfirepower.com/navy-submarines.asp

Japan? France?

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It would be interesting to see out of that list how many are actually operational, Germany had none of her 6 in operating condition recently.

 

[brihard]

Does Canada send all of our command candidates on Perisher or some other foreign courses? I can’t imagine we have sufficient need/capacity to run our own?

 

[dapaterson]

Especially since the West Edmonton Mall closed their fleet...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Does Canada send all of our command candidates on Perisher or some other foreign courses? I can’t imagine we have sufficient need/capacity to run our own?

My understanding is that we take part in a combined allied course for nations running non-nuclear subs. From here I learned that we supported a Norwegian run course with one of our Victoria Class.

 

[Sub Standard]

My understanding is you don't give up your Dolphins but your days underwater by that point are over. 

Kind of makes sense, if you are doing Perisher that means you've already probably served a D-Level and possibly as the XO so there is really nowhere else to go.  Hardly a vote of confidence for the Officer in question.

I've also heard that a Canadian Officer has never failed the Perisher Course.  That's not a coincidence.  From what I have heard, some of the other countries throw bodies at it and see what sticks while we hand pick ours that go.

It's probably just a numbers thing as some other countries have had far more submarines than we have had in service.

Canada has definitely had people fail Perisher.

Does Canada send all of our command candidates on Perisher or some other foreign courses? I can’t imagine we have sufficient need/capacity to run our own?

Canada sends our perspective CO's on either the Dutch or Norwegian Perisher.

 

[Spencer100]

Just watching the show.  WOW just Wow the cost.  I thought training Fighter Pilots was expensive.  This has got to be one on the most expensive training courses there is.

The sub, frigates, destroyers, planes, special forces.  Millions and Millions $$$$$

Now I understand the other ships and crews are getting training at the same time too.  But it does seem to be concentrated of the sub captain training. 

 

[dimsum]

Just watching the show.  WOW just Wow the cost.  I thought training Fighter Pilots was expensive.  This has got to be one on the most expensive training courses there is.

The sub, frigates, destroyers, planes, special forces.  Millions and Millions $$$$$

Now I understand the other ships and crews are getting training at the same time too.  But it does seem to be concentrated of the sub captain training.

The Joint Warrior part seems to be framed that way, but it's definitely not Perisher-centric.  There are a ton of various complementary things being tested/exercised (the surface fleet, helicopters and MPA working ASW, a land component doing assaults, the fleet protecting against fast air, etc.  Perisher is a part, but I don't think many people outside of the sub know there was a CO course going on during the EX.

As for the other bits, yeah but the other units also benefit in the training.  So I guess it's a wash.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Just watching the show.  WOW just Wow the cost.  I thought training Fighter Pilots was expensive.  This has got to be one on the most expensive training courses there is.

The sub, frigates, destroyers, planes, special forces.  Millions and Millions $$$$$

Now I understand the other ships and crews are getting training at the same time too.  But it does seem to be concentrated of the sub captain training.

Have done three separate JW exercises, the subs are a pretty small part of the overall exercise.  It's a pretty comprehensive exercise meant to exercise NATO fleets working together (which can include subs) but there are something like 50-70 ships involved split into to separate forces.  They exercise small boat attacks, low slow fliers and all kinds of other asymmetric attacks you might see, in addition to actual fleet warfare.  They combine it with a crazy level of PR support with a detailed story line and coordinated news releases coming from the various made up countries involved.

I don't know if there is any other international exercise in the world that is this comprehensive for naval warfare. It probably costs a small fortune, but there are tens of billions of assets involved, so cheaper then not practicing and losing ships when it counts. After having done it, it was a lot easier to bounce around NATO task groups as you had a better idea of what to expect with different navies and made a few contacts that helped get stuff done later down the road.

Not that the subs aren't doing their own thing, but they are really almost a footnote for the surface fleet, with the exception of specific exercises between the units.  We also do a lot of internal individual/team training while we're there, so can be pretty busy for everyone.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

RIMPAC is a huge ex as well.  There is also Dynamic Manta (annual Med exercise) and Dynamic Mongoose.  For ASW, my preferred ex has been Manta.  Great ex for crews, especially those who've not seen a lot of ASW.  Great to see the "bigger picture", exercise with the surface assets and fly on real world diesel and nuc boats. 

The Med is also a great location to have to go to for a month in the Feb/Mar time frame...

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Med is also a great location to have to go to for a month in the Feb/Mar time frame...

Unlike, say, the NWT? #infantrylifeisdifferent

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Meanwhile; https://www.naval-technology.com/news/naval-group-launches-frances-first-barracuda-class-nuclear-submarine/?fbclid=IwAR0kiTcYasp-iDNTUVKsjuJ_Eo_m9yOsVRQBAXroyEJsM3yaNnWkJLxnGOE

 

[dimsum]

Meanwhile; https://www.naval-technology.com/news/naval-group-launches-frances-first-barracuda-class-nuclear-submarine/?fbclid=IwAR0kiTcYasp-iDNTUVKsjuJ_Eo_m9yOsVRQBAXroyEJsM3yaNnWkJLxnGOE

I wonder if their crews will be Suffren the shakedown cruises though 

 

[MilEME09]

That is about $1.68 billion each for those subs if my math was correct, seems out of our price range for sure, then again maybe the remainder of the flight could come under budget as production chugs along.

 

[YZT580]

Being nuclear powered does that mean they qualify as a CO2 reduction programme?

 

[Retired AF Guy]

That is about $1.68 billion each for those subs if my math was correct, seems out of our price range for sure, then again maybe the remainder of the flight could come under budget as production chugs along.

Canada should get onboard with SAAB's new A26 submarine. Sweden has a proven record with conventional submarines and the A26 looks like the best out there. So far, Sweden has ordered two A26s for roughly $1 billion USD (2015 dollars) with delivery's in 2024 and 2025.

 

[Dale Denton]

Seems like a smarter idea^.

I get the idea that there is no will to get replacements on the NSS docket due to the huge cost of a project like this.

We have 2 giant projects going on concurrently (Jets+Type 26) that are out of control in cost and delays and are embarrassing for any gov't of the day. Imagine telling the public that we're gonna start a third giant project probably equal in size in terms of:
- cost, built overseas or even here
- shipyards being pretty busy at home
- how long a project will be from idea to first delivery
- our system is buggered already, so it'll be fraught with lawsuits from the beginning

We can't get those 2 projects in shape, so starting a 3rd would be irresponsible. Even if you sole-sourced ~6 from Sweden, built in SWE, then how could you justify the $20B (or w/e number) being sent overseas?