Replacing the Subs

[Czech_pivo]

As reported on Noah's substack, the German and Norwegian Defence Ministers have stated that if Canada joins their program to buy the Type 212CD submarine, they will allow early deliveries to the RCN and not wait until all 12 German-Norwegian subs are delivered.

Germany and Norway offer Canada early access to new submarines in pitch to join project

German ambassador to Canada says if Ottawa agrees to buy the 212 CD, a submarine under development by TKMS, it will not have to wait for 12 vessels to first be delivered to Germany and Norway

www.theglobeandmail.com

Still think we should go with the South Korean KS-III.

Any chance anyone has a link to the above that get around the paywall?

 

[lenaitch]

Any chance anyone has a link to the above that get around the paywall?

https://archive.ph/3yOwO

 

[MacNav63]

Just curious…did Canada operate any subs prior to the Oberon class?

Not counting the two the government of BC bought at the start of the First World War there were HMC Submarines Rainbow and Grilse, both on loan from the USN during the 60s and into the 70s.

 

[MacNav63]

Not counting the two the government of BC bought at the start of the First World War there were HMC Submarines Rainbow and Grilse, both on loan from the USN during the 60s and into the 70s.

My mistake, Rainbow was purchased.

 

[suffolkowner]

My mistake, Rainbow was purchased.

i thought we assembled a few during ww2 as well?

 

[Maxman1]

The Vics were purchased in 1998. They didn't start commissioning into the RCN until the early 2000s.

Upholder/Victoria-class submarine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Either way, they weren't used in the turbot dispute which happened years before they were purchased, and are used for far more than ASW targets.

 

[Maxman1]

i thought we assembled a few during ww2 as well?

Two U-boats surrendered to us in May 1945.

 

[Rainbow1910]

RCN Submarine Branch was originally stood up in early August of 1914 with HMCS CC-1 and CC-2, went to Halifax in 1917 and did not leave until they were scrapped in 1920.

HMCS CH14 and CH15 were transferred to the RCN in Feb of 1919, they laid unused until April of 1920. They weren't really operational until 1922 when they were immediately placed in reserve until scrapped in 1927.

Submarine Branch was disbanded until 1945 when the RCN got HMCS U-190 until 1947 when she was scuttled. HMCS U-889 was only under RCN control for a few months before being given to the USN.

The service was disbanded again until the RCN got the former USS Burrfish (renamed HMCS Grilse) on loan from the USN from 1961 - 1969. USS Argonaut (HMCS Rainbow) would replace Burrfish from 1968 - 1974 when she was decommissioned because of a lack of funds.

The RCN got Ojibwa, Onondaga and Okanagan in 1965, with the following two in 1967 and 1968 respectively. They were decommissioned in the late 1990's and replaced by the Upholders.

 

[suffolkowner]

so back to the contenders and pretenders
what are the pluses and minuses again

South Koreas KSS3

PROS
large
in production
construction capacity
vertical launch system
fuel cell AIP
lithium batteries
CONS
no commonality with allies
distant supply lines
large crew?

Germany/NOR U212CD

PROS
commonality with allies
fuel cell AIP
lithium batteries
small crew 30+
CONS
construction capacity?
stretching design limitations?

Swedens A26+

PROS
yard availability
hot line
small crew 30+
CONS
Stirling AIP?
orphan fleet?
batteries?
design?
first of class

France/NLDs Barracuda/ORKA

PROS
?
room for 60?
experienced submarine contractor
CONS
limited commonality
construction capability
no AIP?
lithium batteries?

S80

PROS
hot line
yard availability
US integration
32 crew
CONS
limited commonality
ethanol AIP?
batteries?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Either way, they weren't used in the turbot dispute which happened years before they were purchased, and are used for far more than ASW targets.

The Vics were used in what dispute ?

 

[suffolkowner]

The Vics were used in what dispute ?

the fish war with Spain

Turbot War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Halifax Tar]

the fish war with Spain

Turbot War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's what I thought. I would imagine Oberon's may have been involved in this, but not the Vics.

My understanding is at that time the Upholders were laid up and out of service in the UK.

 

[GR66]

That's what I thought. I would imagine Oberon's may have been involved in this, but not the Vics.

My understanding is at that time the Upholders were laid up and out of service in the UK.

The O-boats were involved in DFO fishery patrols but not specifically during the "Turbot War" (despite a Toronto Sun picture suggesting otherwise)

Despite the obvious drawbacks, GROUSE achieved one spectacular result. In the wake of the so called ‘Turbot War’ between Canada and Spain in the first months of 1995, a photograph of a Spanish fishing vessel taken through the lens of a submarine attack periscope dominated the entire front page of the Toronto Sun, a popular Canadian newspaper.

The accompanying headline blared, “Canada to Spain: We’re Watching You…And This Is How We Do It!” The message seemed apparent: a Canadian submarine had been at sea monitoring Spanish fishermen. In fact, no Canadian submarine deployed to the Grand Banks during the ‘Turbot War’ and the photo had actually been taken by Okanagan during GROUSE.

 

[Czech_pivo]

so back to the contenders and pretenders
what are the pluses and minuses again

South Koreas KSS3

PROS
large
in production
construction capacity
vertical launch system
fuel cell AIP
lithium batteries
CONS
no commonality with allies
distant supply lines
large crew?

Germany/NOR U212CD

PROS
commonality with allies
fuel cell AIP
lithium batteries
small crew 30+
CONS
construction capacity?
stretching design limitations?

Swedens A26+

PROS
yard availability
hot line
small crew 30+
CONS
Stirling AIP?
orphan fleet?
batteries?
design?
first of class

France/NLDs Barracuda/ORKA

PROS
?
room for 60?
experienced submarine contractor
CONS
limited commonality
construction capability
no AIP?
lithium batteries?

S80

PROS
hot line
yard availability
US integration
32 crew
CONS
limited commonality
ethanol AIP?
batteries?

I'd add some caveats to the above info;

SK Subs under the CONS:
no commonality with allies - this can change if Poland selects them
distant supply lines - this can change if Poland selects them - facilities then located in Poland/NS/BC & SK

Sweden Subs under the CONS:
Is this sub usable in the North Atlantic and Pacific or is it designed for use in the Baltic?

French Subs under the PROS:
Documentation would already exist in French, one less translation to do (saying this tongue in cheek)

 

[suffolkowner]

I'd add some caveats to the above info;

SK Subs under the CONS:
no commonality with allies - this can change if Poland selects them
distant supply lines - this can change if Poland selects them - facilities then located in Poland/NS/BC & SK

Sweden Subs under the CONS:
Is this sub usable in the North Atlantic and Pacific or is it designed for use in the Baltic?

French Subs under the PROS:
Documentation would already exist in French, one less translation to do (saying this tongue in cheek)

I expect the Swedish sub is as much Collins as it is A26 but i dont know

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If we're going to stick with diesel/ electric, would they be able to leave Halifax, go up to the Arctic, do a prolonged patrol (a month?) and return without using a milchkuh or a surface supply ship?

 

[NavyShooter]

When I got back from the Turbot War on GAT, I'm pretty sure all the subs were alongside.

 

[BdaDug]

Agreed. It's a Seaspan job as far as I am concerned. besides, the type of mini-submarines, AUV's etc. that would be required are mostly built and developed (and exported all over the world) on the West Coast.

It's apparently been some tough sledding, but I think Seaspan probably deserves more credit for constructing such an assortment of Coast Guard vessels compared to Irving's construction of 6+2 AOPS of relatively similar design.

 

[Furniture]

South Koreas KSS3

PROS
large
in production
construction capacity
vertical launch system
fuel cell AIP
lithium batteries
CONS
no commonality with allies- Except South Korea, who is close to our next most likely adversary
distant supply lines- Except where we need boats, in the Pacific
large crew?

The next fight is unlikely to be in the North Atlantic, so maybe we should be starting to wrap our heads around that and stop looking only at Halifax, and Europe.

 

[MacNav63]

RCN Submarine Branch was originally stood up in early August of 1914 with HMCS CC-1 and CC-2, went to Halifax in 1917 and did not leave until they were scrapped in 1920.

HMCS CH14 and CH15 were transferred to the RCN in Feb of 1919, they laid unused until April of 1920. They weren't really operational until 1922 when they were immediately placed in reserve until scrapped in 1927.

Submarine Branch was disbanded until 1945 when the RCN got HMCS U-190 until 1947 when she was scuttled. HMCS U-889 was only under RCN control for a few months before being given to the USN.

The service was disbanded again until the RCN got the former USS Burrfish (renamed HMCS Grilse) on loan from the USN from 1961 - 1969. USS Argonaut (HMCS Rainbow) would replace Burrfish from 1968 - 1974 when she was decommissioned because of a lack of funds.

The RCN got Ojibwa, Onondaga and Okanagan in 1965, with the following two in 1967 and 1968 respectively. They were decommissioned in the late 1990's and replaced by the Upholders.

And didn't the RN maintain a submarine squadron out of Halifax post war until we acquired Grilse?