Regular physical fitness testing?

[PJ D-Dog]

I agree with Infanteer, Ubercree and Go.

I remember back in 1989 when I joined the CF, there was something called BMI (body mass index) and if you didn't fall within BMI standards, you could not get promoted etc...although I cannot remember the reference, I did hear a story about how the use of BMI was thrown out of the CF...something to do with a human rights complaint and discrimination based on being fat.

In the 1999, I was a participant in a People Soft working group in Ottawa, helping to map one of our legacy systems to a new database system called People Soft.  One of the Captains in the working group was from the air force side and he weighed in at a dainty 300 pounds.  It was rumoured they had to use the curtains in the air force mess in Ottawa in order to make him a new set of DEUs.  He wobbled as opposed to walk but he could do the 200 meter dash for any product from Tim Hortons, mostly a boston cream.

On Remembrance Day this year (last Friday), I had the priviledge to attend the Canadian Embassy's ceremony here in Washington DC.  All CF personnel assigned to the DC region had to attend unles on TD or leave.  Most the CF personnel in attendance were air force, with some sprinkling of army and a token sailor or two.  My first observation was that most of the CF members were obviously over weight.  Now, how did I come to that conclusion, how about the large bulge protruding out of their mid-section forcing the jacket of their uniform outward.  I said nothing as it wasn't my place too but I've had other Marines who have met CF members in the DC region comment on the same thing.

Of course the cure for every military ailment is found within the Marine Corps and thus here is the cure for the CF physical fitness problem:  use the Marine Corps PFT.

The Marines have one standard across the board no matter what the MOS.  Twice a year everyone has to perform the physical fitness test (PFT).  I consists of a three mile run, pull-ups for males and flex-arm hang for females, and crunches.  The combined score of all three events make up a final score out of a maximum of 300.  PFT socres are used in conjunction with promotion points for junior enlisted and are reflected on fitness reports for all other Marines.  Heaven forbid that you should fail a PFT...it usually signals the begining of the end.  Also, the entire chain of command for that one Marine is held responsible...bad, bad joo joo.  The down side to all of this is that some Marines use only the PFT score as a deciding factor on whether or not the Marine is good to go...

My two cents worth....

PJ D-Dog

 

[Haggis]

Of course the cure for every military ailment is found within the Marine Corps and thus here is the cure for the CF physical fitness problem:   use the Marine Corps PFT.

If you wanted results, you would suspend the promotion of anyone above the rank of Lieutenant Colonel, unitil the average coopers test score of everyone under their command hit a certain level.

Why is there such a rush to re-invent the wheel?

Taken a look at CFAO 50-1 or LFCO 24-2 lately?  Both contain details on tests to be conducted and the consequences of failure. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again:  Until we apply and enforce the existing standards, there's little sense in creating a new, even more unacheivable, standard.  This will only take time and money away from other training activities.

There's nothing wrong with the EXPRES Test or BFT providing that everybody (and I mean EVERYBODY!!) is tested (including 300 pound Blue Boxes) yearly and sees the consequences of failure in a tangible and, where warranted, career altering way.

 

[UberCree]

My point axactly.  It is obvious we are lacking somehwere if we cannot enforce the regulations now in place.

 

[Bert]

Theres alot of exaggerated statements about the CF.  Why compare the entire CF, land,
sea , and air, with the US Marines? Why not the US Army with the CF, or the USAF with
the Air command, or the IDF with the maritime command?  Its like (thanks Paracowboy,
this word is still leaking into my everyday) comparing apples and oranges.  The difference
in my opinion is the daily training and tempo afforded to each of these units.

In reference to Infanteer's and Haggis's posts, the development and improvement of
fitness (and indirectly BMI) is significantly affected by leadership and standardization.

Unless the member is categorized or in remedial training, everyone has to pass the CF Express test
(or BFT).  The larger CF members observed by PJ D-Dog in DC likely passed the CF Express test.  
They meet the standard.  Passing the CF Express test is a standard as Haggis implies in the
CFAOs but it is not a method to fitness.

In order to achieve CF Express exemption or beyond the pass threshold, takes more effort and
this is where I think the CF as a whole looses it.  Different units maintain different PT requirements.
Some units have mandatory PT five times a week for two hour sessions, others have three
periods for an hour a session, others utilize collective unit training occasionally, others have one
session a week and allocate time for members on their own work-day schedule.  The more
deployable or the higher the readiness of the unit, the more PT and collective training the
unit gets.

However, though members can perform PT on their own time after work, my point is the provision
of PT is not standard across the units.  Without standardizing PT sessions and durations, there will
be more variance in the fitness/BMI statistics.

 

[Infanteer]

Hey, the Marines have an Air Arm and they work on boats - fair comparison.

 

[buzgo]

Theres alot of exaggerated statements about the CF. Why compare the entire CF, land,
sea , and air, with the US Marines? Why not the US Army with the CF, or the USAF with
the Air command, or the IDF with the maritime command? Its like (thanks Paracowboy,
this word is still leaking into my everyday) comparing apples and oranges. The difference
in my opinion is the daily training and tempo afforded to each of these units.

In reference to Infanteer's and Haggis's posts, the development and improvement of
fitness (and indirectly BMI) is significantly affected by leadership and standardization.

Unless the member is categorized or in remedial training, everyone has to pass the CF Express test
(or BFT).  The larger CF members observed by PJ D-Dog in DC likely passed the CF Express test.
They meet the standard. Passing the CF Express test is a standard as Haggis implies in the
CFAOs but it is not a method to fitness.

In order to achieve CF Express exemption or beyond the pass threshold, takes more effort and
this is where I think the CF as a whole looses it. Different units maintain different PT requirements.
Some units have mandatory PT five times a week for two hour sessions, others have three
periods for an hour a session, others utilize collective unit training occasionally, others have one
session a week and allocate time for members on their own work-day schedule. The more
deployable or the higher the readiness of the unit, the more PT and collective training the
unit gets.

However, though members can perform PT on their own time after work, my point is the provision
of PT is not standard across the units. Without standardizing PT sessions and durations, there will
be more variance in the fitness/BMI statistics.

People are always going to use the 'operational tempo' argument to get out of doing PT. It always seems to be the first thing to go out the window. However, there is NO excuse for people to not do PT on their own time.

I don't believe that morbidly obese people are passing the EXPRES test either. I have seen them pass the BFT (and they were laid up for 2 weeks after) but I honestly don't think they can do the 20 msr.

In the end, it all comes down to leadership (as KevinB stated) until the leadership of all of our units is willing to pursue these people and persecute them (I don't think people deserve much slack at this point) and get rid of them.  People are afraid to rock the boat and enforce the standards.

 

[Britney Spears]

Hey, the Marines have an Air Arm and they work on boats - fair comparison. Smiley

I've always wondered how people in the Marine Air Wing explained their jobs to civvies. "So, you're saying you work for the Navy's Army's Air force? Isn't that a little redundant?"

 

[FITSUMO]

"People are always going to use the 'operational tempo' argument to get out of doing PT"

ummm sorry, come again.  Being as I am about to start a career in Jan or Feb, I am confussed with the above statement, Why would anyone in the CF want to get out of doing PT, to be truthful here, that is one of the biggest draws, you get fitter while serving.

Am I really this naive, I was told by my recruiter that once in,  you have to pass a PT test every year and I believed him. ??? (please note sarcasm, as I am laying it on)

 

[PJ D-Dog]

I may be dating myself or quoting older information.  When I was in class B in Gagetown, the base came out with a policy concerning PT on your own time.  My impression at the time was that it only applied to reservists on Class B for life.  It basically stated that if you got hurt conducting non-sanctioned individual PT you would not be covered by medical.  Basically, PT on your own at your own risk.  It went on to say how we had to PT three times a week for a minimum of an hour.

I know things have probably changed but this is just to illustrate the type of attitude that has been prevalent in the CF over the years.  I agree there is a reluctance to enforce the regulations that are currently present but that stems from weak leadership on the part of the higher command structure.

I'm confident that the CF personnel in DC did pass the riquired express test but the military appearance portion does not fit into the equation.  In the Marines, in order to be selected for promotion (staff NCO on up) you must submit a current picture of yourself in uniform in order to ensure you meet the military appearance regulations.  In other words, you can't look like a fat body even if you pass the PFT and are within the hight/weight standards.  Those who are over weight are assigned to a special remedial PT program and placed on a type of probation.  These are all things that the Canadian human rights commission would have a field day with.  Again, my two cents...

PJ D-Dog

 

[PJ D-Dog]

"People are always going to use the 'operational tempo' argument to get out of doing PT"
ummm sorry, come again.  Being as I am about to start a career in Jan or Feb, I am confussed with the above statement, Why would anyone in the CF want to get out of doing PT, to be truthful here, that is one of the biggest draws, you get fitter while serving.

Am I really this naive, I was told by my recruiter that once in,  you have to pass a PT test every year and I believed him. ??? (please note sarcasm, as I am laying it on)

Sorry to bust your bubble but, yes you are a bit naive.   Many CF members become complacent in their career and view it as just another job.   This is not everyone, but many of them.   My adivce to you is to remain motivated and stay in shape once you rotate from training to a unit.   Others will see this and want to be as motivated as you are.   Change can only take place one soldier at a time.   Good luck.

PJ D-Dog

 

[Haggis]

I may be dating myself or quoting older information.  When I was in class B in Gagetown, the base came out with a policy concerning PT on your own time.  My impression at the time was that it only applied to reservists on Class B for life.  It basically stated that if you got hurt conducting non-sanctioned individual PT you would not be covered by medical.  Basically, PT on your own at your own risk.  It went on to say how we had to PT three times a week for a minimum of an hour.

Don't know how long ago this was but times have indeed changed.

Part of the CF EXPRES program is to complete the CF 279 form (whether you pass or not).  On this form you tick off the activites you will be participating in as part of your EXercise PREScription, as well as the frequency for each activity.  If you complete the BFT instead, you should always report to your local CFPSA office and fill out a CF279 to be placed on your file. This is what determines the difference between sanctioned and non sanctioned individual PT for pension purposes.

I work at NDHQ in a brand new building with a super little gym.  There are over 100 CF members there and less than 2 dozen use this facility on a regular basis (mostly from my Directorate). I work in one of the busiest Directorates in the NCR and both me and my MCpl make it to the gym a minimum of one hour per day, every weekday during working hours.  (and PJ D-Dog, I know that Air Force Officer)

Regarding OP Tempo as an excuse, If you're on ops, then finding time for PT isn't much of a problem.  Every day is a workout.  If you're not deployed, there's always time for PT.

Get over it and do it.  Don't tell me about excuses.  I've heard 'em all!

 

[Daidalous]

Unit PT is the best,  you push your self more in front of your friends and peers than you would alone.  What gets my goat is when only Mcpl and below show up.

 

[GO!!!]

Has anyone else seen the AF officer in Trenton that sits on two chairs? (I'll give you a hint - he's not using the second one for his feet!)

I think he's a Col. How could he try to enforce a PT regime?

 

[George Wallace]

I may be dating myself or quoting older information.  When I was in class B in Gagetown, the base came out with a policy concerning PT on your own time.  My impression at the time was that it only applied to reservists on Class B for life.  It basically stated that if you got hurt conducting non-sanctioned individual PT you would not be covered by medical.  Basically, PT on your own at your own risk.  It went on to say how we had to PT three times a week for a minimum of an hour.......

PJ D-Dog

You know, you are passing yourself off here as an ignorant Militia Wog, by making statements like this.   This is only half of the story, and you left out the most critical part of it.   So get it right if you want to pass on criticism or advice.   What you said is true, but you left out the fact that people who wanted to partake in PT after hours or on their own time were to simply fill in what activities that they were interested in doing on a CF Express Form at their OR or Gym and they would be covered.

 

[Daidalous]

I thought  that Col got posted out.

 

[buzgo]

You know, you are passing yourself off here as an ignorant Militia Wog, by making statements like this.   This is only half of the story, and you left out the most critical part of it.   So get it right if you want to pass on criticism or advice.   What you said is true, but you left out the fact that people who wanted to partake in PT after hours or on their own time were to simply fill in what activities that they were interested in doing on a CF Express Form at their OR or Gym and they would be covered.

I think that there are things that you would never be alble to get listed though. For example, I whitewater kayak, ice climb and compete in adventure races. If I get wrecked doing any of these activities, I'm pretty sure that I will be screwed. I would even hazard a guess that if my chain of command wanted to ORDER me NOT to do these things, they could and I would little to say about it...

 

[George Wallace]

I think that there are things that you would never be alble to get listed though. For example, I whitewater kayak, ice climb and compete in adventure races. If I get wrecked doing any of these activities, I'm pretty sure that I will be screwed. I would even hazard a guess that if my chain of command wanted to ORDER me NOT to do these things, they could and I would little to say about it...

Not true.  As long as it was listed by you on you form, you are supposed to be covered by it.  There are people who are Marathon Runners, Triathaletes, etc. who enter things like Ironman competitions and marathons on Civie Street, and that is one of the reasons this policy came into effect. 

 

[buzgo]

Not true.   As long as it was listed by you on you form, you are supposed to be covered by it.   There are people who are Marathon Runners, Triathaletes, etc. who enter things like Ironman competitions and marathons on Civie Street, and that is one of the reasons this policy came into effect.   

I spoke with the PSP people today, and they said that you no longer list things on your EXPRES form. They recommended just to do what you want for fitness/sports/pt and if you get hurt you have to justify it with VA (and CFPSA who reviews those cases).

Also, your examples of triatheletes and marathoners is not sooo great. These are all CF sports so are automatically recognized.

 

[PJ D-Dog]

You know, you are passing yourself off here as an ignorant Militia Wog, by making statements like this.   This is only half of the story, and you left out the most critical part of it.   So get it right if you want to pass on criticism or advice.   What you said is true, but you left out the fact that people who wanted to partake in PT after hours or on their own time were to simply fill in what activities that they were interested in doing on a CF Express Form at their OR or Gym and they would be covered.

First off, I resent being called a Militia Wog as your weak veilled attempt at lining it out does not detract or reduce the effect of being referred too as such.  I don't attack you personally due to your choice of branch of service (regular or reserve).  It is just this type of attitude that promotes a negative working relationship between the reserve and regular force.  I have known my fair share of Militia Wogs and I, Sir, am not one of them.  I have also known Regular Force Wogs as well....are you one of those?

I was not aware of the second part that you referred too in your correction statement.  This information was not passed on to me by my chain of command at that time.  Incidently, my chain of command at the time was made up of Regular Force soldiers (some of whom I would categorize as Reg Force Wogs).  In the branch where I worked, we did not do the express test.  We were required to the 13K ruck march.  The CO at time wanted it done this way and that's what we did.  We were never informed of the existence of the CF express form or even how to go about getting the CO's permission to do whatever PT exercises after hours.  As a result, I posted the most accurate information that I had relative to the situation that I was in at the time.  If that information is incorrect, then I will be more than happy to stand corrected but without being referred to as a Militia Wog.

As a member of the Militia, I strived only to be best that I could be.  Anyone you speak too who served with me in the Militia will tell you straight off that I was no where near being a Wog of any sort.  After 11 years of being treated like garbage by people with the same negative attitude that you displayed, and being under paid, I opted to join the Marines.  I know of only two other so called Militia Wogs who did the same, and one of them joined because of my wog-like efforts at getting him in.

PJ D-Dog.

 

[Popurhedoff]

  Many CF members become complacent in their career and view it as just another job.  This is not everyone, but many of them.

I find this especially true in the AirForce.

Unit PT is the best,  you push your self more in front of your friends and peers than you would alone.  What gets my goat is when only Mcpl and below show up.

This morning we went out for a morning run... only two of us showed up...hmmmmmm  so we did the old 1.5 mile run in under 11 minutes... with full rucksack, webbing and combat boots... oh ya... we are two of the Sgt's.

  Change can only take place one soldier at a time.   Good luck.

Leadership by example,  I was recently in St. Jean to pick up a buddy (MG34) who was on his ILQ course... there was a large group of Sr. NCO's milling about when I saw MG34 coming towards me... I told him in a loud voice so that some could hear "that he would not get promoted because it looked to me that rank was predicated by Girth".  I could not believe how many... Fat, slobbering Sr. NCO's  I saw, I was appalled. There is no way many of them could think of Leading by example... some could not even walk down the road to go to PT without losing their breath.  The Army guys that I did see were in shape ... but a large majority of the rest... can you think Circus Clowns.

Yes, one soldier at a time, be the example for yourself and others.  On the 17th of Nov I will have 27 years in the regular forces, I am out 3 days a week with my rucksack keeping in shape ... while the shape I currently in is slightly "Pear Shape" I do keep fit.  I have put on over 700kms doing BFT's since Feb.  I do this to keep in shape, for the scenery, piece and quiet, and above all to lead by example.  I am getting close to 50 years old, and I suppose I could get away with slacking off,  I could make excuses and justify not doing PT but that is not me.  I would prefer to do the group PT as I find it is a team building tool.

Cheers
Pop

Remember... one person at a time,  you can make a difference.