Re: Israel Hits U.N. Post

[chupracabra]

I removed that last part as I felt it was not necessary and maybe too angry, so I don't think you needed to re post it jerk! I feel the gist of your post can be boiled down to 'poor Israel, the media is so hard on them'. Give us a break already. Ten phone calls in six hours to the Israelis notifying them of their presence, getting the promise of the Israeli officials that it wouldn't be struck and then it is. And boy is it hit - 17 bombs and 12 artillery shells. Does this sound like an accident? The Israeli's went out of their way to say how precise their pin-point bombing was in response to critics saying they were indiscriminately hitting civilians, but now they are back-peddling and saying they hit a clearly marked white bunker - and then continued to fire upon those who came to the victims aid. If you can honestly say that is an accident, then you are quite obviously deluded my boy, and personally I don't think we need MORE Israeli apologists such as you, the world seems full enough with them as it is.

 

[Scott]

Tamouh, this shall be your only warning from me:

I have sat back and watched how you try to ignite fires in threads and then withdraw when the hard questions are asked. If you continue this MO I will see to it that you are put into the warning system and, if need be, banned from the site.

If you are here to contribute then do so, your behavior thus far would hardly be considered a contribution.

The ball is in your court.

 

[Scott]

I removed that last part as I felt it was not necessary and maybe too angry, so I don't think you needed to re post it jerk! I feel the gist of your post can be boiled down to 'poor Israel, the media is so hard on them'. Give us a break already. Ten phone calls in six hours to the Israelis notifying them of their presence, getting the promise of the Israeli officials that it wouldn't be struck and then it is. And boy is it hit - 17 bombs and 12 artillery shells. Does this sound like an accident? The Israeli's went out of their way to say how precise their pin-point bombing was in response to critics saying they were indiscriminately hitting civilians, but now they are back-peddling and saying they hit a clearly marked white bunker - and then continued to fire upon those who came to the victims aid. If you can honestly say that is an accident, then you are quite obviously deluded my boy, and personally I don't think we need MORE Israeli apologists such as you, the world seems full enough with them as it is.

Quit the personal attacks or go back into the warning system. I won't tell you again.

All, keep this on track and civil or it shall be locked.

 

[chupracabra]

UPDATE 2: Canada’s prime minister Steven Harper also makes sense:


At the same time, he questioned why the UN had manned the outpost in Lebanon near the Israeli border as bombs exploded all around.

“We want to find out why this United Nations post was attacked and also why it remained manned during what is now, more or less, a war during obvious danger to these individuals,” he told reporters.

UPDATE 3: Hezbollah is listed here and in the US and Canada as a terrorist group. Yet The Age today gave one of its spokesmen, Ali Fayyad, a senior member of Hezbollah’s executive committee, a quarter of a page to put his case against Israel. Am I alone in finding this shameful? I guess the paper at least “balanced” it by running alongside it a piece by an Israeli minister. Can someone older than I tell me if it was the habit of The Age in World War 2 to run pieces by Mr Hitler alongside ones by some Jewish spokesman not yet dead for the sake of a “balanced” argument?  We can’t be far from the day that The Age hires Mr Osama bin Laden as a columnist. When Michael Leunig retires, perhaps?

Isn't the point of a U.N. Observer to 'observe' the happenings goiung on around them? They were there, as they always have been for some years now, and one can hardly observe coflict far removed from it! This is the most stupid point I have ever heard.

As for the the third quote, I don't think Hitler and some A-hole from Hezbollah can be equated. can they? Why is the first reaction of apologists of Israel to  call their detractors supporters of Hezbollah (or whomever) or simply anti-Semites? That is a dirty trick that has been used a little too frequently and is losing steam. I personally would like to see Hezbollah wiped out, but I don't think wiping out infrastructure and innocent civilians the way to do it, or maybe you think they are less human than Israeli's?

 

[childs56]

Bottom line is we have seen numerous times in many different conflicts where the UN has been used as a form of shield for one side or the other. What we have lacked in the past is a Country that has a war minded attitude towards this. Isreal is a country that fights to win. They hold very little back in the form of conventional warfare.

If the UN council had allowed this shield to of been used with the knowledge that the Hezbolla or other sanctions were using UN observation posts as safe areas, then they should have known the risks and pulled their soldiers out. Or they should have sent in a force to have proplery secured those posts to prevent further misuse of UN safe zones.

As for Isreal bombing the post, not excusable but at the same time not to much of a grey area here as to how or why it occured.
 
  My questions are why did we have observers on the border at this time? Why does the UN have a large lack of ability or mandate to remove it's soldiers from harms way at a moments notice such as this conflict has shown.

I myself am very happy that I have not participated under a strictly UN controlled mission. Most of them seem to be very bare bones and not very forth comming when it comes to security of it's own members. Number one priority of a UN mission should be it's soldiers safety. Number two should be the re instatement of peace. Both of those go hand in hand.

 

[tamouh]

CanadaPhill: merci! couldn't resist being away!

This is Hezbollah YOU DEFEND.

I'm in no way defending Hezbollah, read my posts again. You can go and talk about them all you want. All I know about them is they're putting up sure amount of resistant that IDF hadn't anticipated. Not sure for how long they're going to last though!

chupracabra: ez man , I can see why you're angry but the guys also have a point that Hezbollah tries to utilize situations to its advantage. Nevertheless, Israel shouldn't have fired in the direction of the UN no matter what, this is my argument. On th e other side, there were clear indications from the UN report that IDF was firing towards the UN position, yet, there were no clear message that Hezbollah fighters were around the region. Some suggested 'tactical' means Hezbollah was there, I'd find it surprising the report makes direct accusation against Israel yet no mention of Hezbollah is around. I'm still giving IDF the benefit of the doubt because no reasonable person would fire upon the UN especially one in a position like Israel. Yet, these are still doubts.

Scott: thx, i'm always here to contribute as long as the conversation is balanced and open-minded.

CTD:
My questions are why did we have observers on the border at this time? Why does the UN have a large lack of ability or mandate to remove it's soldiers from harms way at a moments notice such as this conflict has shown.

I agree with that too. I was surprised knowing the UN observers were still there. However, this is not a grey area, firing upon UN observer as an absolute violation and from the reports there had been number of registered complaints against the IDF to stop firing upon UN position.

 

[chupracabra]

Now this is what I think this site is all about - a debate about something with meat and potatoes! If the Hezbollah was using the UN members as shields, then that is a different story, bu this doesn't seem to be the case, and in fact seems like an ad hoc embellishment. When I watched the news, the first thing I thought was of the excuses that would be thrown around and that was the most obvious one. Like someone said in a previous post, if the Israeli forces can produce un-doctored cockpit footage  of the bombing, nothing will be resolved in my opinion. Let's wait and see.

 

[Dare]

Bravo Israel....use Canadian passports to move their spies, infiltrate the US defense , their greatest allie with a spy agents then when caught denounce the agent, fire upon UN observers, bomb canadians on vacation, and not hesitate once to put its allies at risk for the selfish purpose of securing their own being. This is Israel you defend, a great allie who bomb you from behind then come out to your funeral.

Honestly though, .. what does that mean? .. *eyebrow*

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

chupracabra there is an email floating around here by the Canadian officer that recently died stating the Hezbollah were taking up fighting postions very close to the UN outpost.

 

[Dare]

I removed that last part as I felt it was not necessary and maybe too angry, so I don't think you needed to re post it jerk! I feel the gist of your post can be boiled down to 'poor Israel, the media is so hard on them'. Give us a break already. Ten phone calls in six hours to the Israelis notifying them of their presence, getting the promise of the Israeli officials that it wouldn't be struck and then it is. And boy is it hit - 17 bombs and 12 artillery shells. Does this sound like an accident? The Israeli's went out of their way to say how precise their pin-point bombing was in response to critics saying they were indiscriminately hitting civilians, but now they are back-peddling and saying they hit a clearly marked white bunker - and then continued to fire upon those who came to the victims aid. If you can honestly say that is an accident, then you are quite obviously deluded my boy, and personally I don't think we need MORE Israeli apologists such as you, the world seems full enough with them as it is.

"Us" a break? Who do you represent?.. My point was it's very clear from the reports directly from the people who were there that Hezb'allah were taking up positions around the outpost, which is flying a Hezb'allah flag. It being an accident is different than saying they missed. So the shots may have been accurate, but it was directed at Hezb'allah. What has Israel gained in killing 4 UN troops, including one of ours? ZERO. Where is your outrage at the UN letting these guys sit there in the crossfire? Invariably *someone* had to occupy the hill. If the UN was not going to defend it from both parties, or even one party, it's simply going to get overrun. The purpose of having them there? What was UNIFIL's mission? I can't say I know a lot about what it was, but it doesn't seem to have been worth it, in my opinion.

 

[HItorMiss]

I find it intresting that anyone from a "civilized western nation" could even remotely defend an organization who's goal is Genocide of the Jewish population, and lets be clear destruction of the Jewish state of Israel IS Genocide. I wont even get into kidnap and murder for which they are currently under siege for.

 

[Babbling Brooks]

What was UNIFIL's mission? I can't say I know a lot about what it was, but it doesn't seem to have been worth it, in my opinion.

Since you asked:

According to Security Council resolutions 425 (1978) and 426 (1978) of 19 March 1978, UNIFIL was established to:

Confirm the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon;
Restore international peace and security;
Assist the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area.
Most recently the mandate of UNIFIL was extended until 31 July 2006 by Security Council resolution 1655 (2006) of 31 January 2006.

(link here: http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/mandate.html)

Note that their mandate ends in four days.  What could the UN hope they'd accomplish by keeping them there until 31JUL06, when they couldn't fulfil their mission in 28 years?

Maj HVK was actually with UNTSO, though, and their mandate is as follows:

Established in May 1948 to assist the United Nations Mediator and the Truce Commission in supervising the observance of the truce in Palestine.

Since then, UNTSO has performed various tasks entrusted to it by the Security Council, including the supervision of the General Armistice Agreements of 1949 and the observation of the ceasefire in the Suez Canal area and the Golan Heights following the Arab-Israeli war of June 1967.

At present, UNTSO assists and cooperates with the United Nations Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF) on the Golan Heights in the Israel-Syria sector, and the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) in the Israel-Lebanon sector. UNTSO is also present in the Egypt-Israel sector in the Sinai. UNTSO maintains offices in Beirut and Damascus.

(link here: http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/untso/mandate.html)

Harper's call for why the UN didn't withdraw those troops is a reasonable one, given the fact that they had absolutely no hope of fulfilling their mandate with the resources provided.  But his gov't also has to answer the same question, as I see it.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Cdn gov't could have recalled Maj HVK at any time, and if they thought the UN mission was a waste of time and not worth the risk to soldiers' lives, they could have pulled Cdn participation like the Aussies just did.

 

[GAP]

Harper's call for why the UN didn't withdraw those troops is a reasonable one, given the fact that they had absolutely no hope of fulfilling their mandate with the resources provided.  But his gov't also has to answer the same question, as I see it.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Cdn gov't could have recalled Maj HVK at any time, and if they thought the UN mission was a waste of time and not worth the risk to soldiers' lives, they could have pulled Cdn participation like the Aussies just did.

But was the Canadian government as aware of the situation as the UN was. They reported to the UN, not Canadian authorities.

 

[tamouh]

Quagmire: This is the email, and there is NO mention of Hezbollah being close to their position, however, he rather indicated the bombing is NOT deliberate rather tactical. In other reports it mentions the UN post called the IDF several times to stop bombing close to the observation post (* need confirmation):

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060718/mideast_lebanon_UN_060716/20060718/

Quote him:
"
This is all the information of a non-tactical nature that I can provide you. I cannot give you any info on Hezbollah position, proximity or the amount of or types of sorties the IAF is currently flying. Suffice to say that the activity levels and operational tempo of both parties is currently very high and continuous, with short breaks or pauses. Please understand the nature of my job here is to be impartial and to report violations from both sides without bias. As an Unarmed Military Observer, this is my raison d'etre.

What I can tell you is this: we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.

I thank you for the opportunity to provide you with some information from the front lines here in south Lebanon.

Maj Hess-von Kruedener
"

Now that I read his email several times, I think Maj. Kruedener had a feeling the bombing will get more intense and may even hit his post. It all goes to what you want to interpret the words of "tactical necessity" since he can't disclose the Hezbollah positions. Maybe the IDF thought their smart-bombs can never miss, or thought its worth the risk?

 

[[RAMMSTEIN]]

Can someone tell in a simple way what is going on around the UN post ?  I am confused.  :blotto:
          Thank you.

 

[CanadaPhil]

Tamouh???

Did you actually read the last few paragrahs....

Here they are again:

(4) Team Sierra is currently observing both IDF/IAF and Hezbollah military clashes from our vantage point which has a commanding view of the IDF positions on the Golan mountains to our east and the IDF positions along the Blue Line to our south, as well as, most of the Hezbollah static positions in and around our patrol Base. It appears that the lion's share of fighting between the IDF and Hezbollah has taken place in our area. On the night of 16 July, at 2125 hrs, a large firefight broke out between the Hezbollah and the IDF near a village called Majidyye and lasted for one hour and 40 minutes.

(5) Based on the intensity and volatility of this current situation and the unpredictability of both sides (Hezbollah and Israel), and given the operational tempo of the Hezbollah and the IDF, we are not safe to venture out to conduct our normal patrol activities. We have now switched to Observation Post Duties and are observing any and all violations as they occur.

This is all the information of a non-tactical nature that I can provide you. I cannot give you any info on Hezbollah position, proximity or the amount of or types of sorties the IAF is currently flying. Suffice to say that the activity levels and operational tempo of both parties is currently very high and continuous, with short breaks or pauses. Please understand the nature of my job here is to be impartial and to report violations from both sides without bias. As an Unarmed Military Observer, this is my raison d'etre.

What I can tell you is this: we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.

I thank you for the opportunity to provide you with some information from the front lines here in south Lebanon.

Maj Hess-von Kruedener


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have emphasised that one part. What he is saying obviously went right over your head didn't it??

 

[GAP]

This is all the information of a non-tactical nature that I can provide you. I cannot give you any info on Hezbollah position, proximity or the amount of or types of sorties the IAF is currently flying

and

It all goes to what you want to interpret the words of "tactical necessity" since he can't disclose the Hezbollah positions. Maybe the IDF thought their smart-bombs can never miss, or thought its worth the risk?

He was constrained in what he could say as to tactical information, but to anyone that has had feet on the ground and people not trying to dismiss possible Hezbollah activity, it does not take a lot of thought. If the IDF was hitting around and near him, that meant Hezbollah was there.

 

[HItorMiss]

The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.

Not being Military I forgive you not being able to figure that part out...tactical necessity means that there are viable targets firing at the IDF from that location.

 

[tamouh]

CanadaPhil: yes I read the last lines, did you read the few last lines in my post ?

Now that I read his email several times, I think Maj. Kruedener had a feeling the bombing will get more intense and may even hit his post. It all goes to what you want to interpret the words of "tactical necessity" since he can't disclose the Hezbollah positions. Maybe the IDF thought their smart-bombs can never miss, or thought its worth the risk?

obviously me is not implying that IDF is wasting 1,000lb bombs to just flatten the ground. However, there is good possibility the IDF suspects Hezbollah bunkers in, around the UN post.

GAP: Agreed as I said above, yet I go back if IDF knew UN post was there, Hezbollah was there then it is not an excuse to bomb the UN. Someone else mentioned it here earlier. Additionally, the UN was ending its mission in 4 days, looking at the speed their ground invasion is progressing, the IDF could have waited 4 days before bombing the UN post.

To sum it: the report indicates the IDF was not deliberately attacking the post, yet they were hitting very close to it due to suspected activities around the UN post. However, that is not an excuse to bomb the UN post nor anywhere close that could endanger the UN observers, especially if they were leaving in 4 days. Someone here said Israel wants to win, I'd add they want to Win by any way or shape.

 

[Weinie]

  Since none of us were there, nor have any inside information on what was "really" happening on the ground, I would suggest that this entire argument of right or wrong is moot.