RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’

[Humphrey Bogart]

Nope, but I've been involved in events that have caused me to be investigated for an accusation of excessive force, where the media was involved and, thankfully my name not released or my reputation would have been in tatters. I have been cleared of wrong doing more than once, and continue to do my job.

I understand, appreciate and honestly welcome the high standard of accountability required in this line of work. The bar to instigate an Independent Investigations Office of BC investigation is pretty low however, and that usually causes a cavalcade of media and public negativity toward the Police as once the IIO is engaged we have no ability to defend ourselves. There is never a retraction or correction of previous stories however, and instead usually a new article that is clearly anti-Police advising the public of how large a travesty it is another Police officer has gotten away with "it" again, whatever the "it" is.

I was not involved in this incident, but I'll leave this link for you to have a look at the level of accountability, depth of investigation, and stress a former member of my Detachment was subjected to, eventually being cleared.

https://iiobc.ca/app/uploads/sites/472/2015/07/2015-107.pdf

The IIO is the result of the YVR taser incident, and despite screams of Police cover-up and corruption, their investigations have yet to convict a single Police Officer of excessive force.

So no different than anyone else who gets accused of a crime they may or may not have committed?  I don't see an issue with this.

Court of public opinion is a tough place, comes with the territory. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Nope, but I've been involved in events that have caused me to be investigated for an accusation of excessive force, where the media was involved and, thankfully my name not released or my reputation would have been in tatters. I have been cleared of wrong doing more than once, and continue to do my job.

I'm glad you were cleared and glad no one released your name. I think that's absolutely a great point how your name and reputation would be in tatters. Not to mention the online abuse you and your family would be subjected to.

I think it's easy to overlook the microscope LEOs are under and the constant challenges to their behavior, reactions and decisions.
On one hand it's absolutely necessary because if you guys fuck up then peoples lives can be destroyed pretty easily. At the same time you guys operating in that environment must be brutal.

I've worked for a very very micromanaging and untrusting CoC and that type of constant micromanaging and criticism was the worst work place environment I've worked in.

 

[brihard]

So no different than anyone else who gets accused of a crime they may or may not have committed?  I don't see an issue with this.

Court of public opinion is a tough place, comes with the territory.

In exceptionally few circumstances will someone's job put them over and over and over again into situations where people will make such complaints vexatiously or maliciously, nor where the court of public opinion will pursue the matter so belligerently. It's widely known at this point that anyone can select part of a video of a rough arrest (and bad choices ont he part of the suspect often necessitate those), get that video online, make a false claim and name the officer, and it's off to the races. There is no accountability for this. People who make false claims about excessive force, or who dox officers or what have you don't face any repercussions. So I would say it's not at all analogous to Joe from the auto body shop who gets in a drunken brawl on the weekend, eats an assault charge, and gets his name in the small town newspaper. Recognize also that in the case of criminal charges, generally a reasonably high threshold has already been met for charges to be laid. There is not such threshold for the sorts of complaints and public allegations RedFive is talking about.

I've been on the wrong end of a number of public complaints - for racism, for excessive force, for sexual assault in a cell block, for 'unlawful detention' (that one was truly hilarious) and so on and so forth. All but one were utter BS, and the one that I ate I absolutely deserved- not paying enough attention at night, thought I had time at an intersection, and hit the intersection as the light went red. Happened to be in front of an extremely prolific public complainer who had a dash cam. Completely my fault and I owned it. All of the others complaints and the lawsuit I was subjected to were BS and were ruled that way... But absolutely nothing tested those complaints for even so much as plausibility before they were fully pursued. Fortunately I've not been on the wrong end of a 'name and shame', but guys I know have, for situations where they did nothing wrong and where someone is trying to dodge or minimize their own accountability for the thing that got them arrested in the first place.

Now, you can argue, fairly, that in these cases the accountability mechanisms worked, and that facts resulted in the proper decision. I'm good with that. The point I'm making, taking this back to questions of accountability and compensation, is that this is an absolutely constant aspect of the job for anyone working front line. The only protection we have from those who use the system maliciously is due process- disciplinary hearings where we can have counsel, the right to remain silent on allegations we're confronted with, support provided by the union... Being constantly subjected to that degree of scrutiny and - frankly - malice and hatred - takes a toll and forms part of the working conditions that result in police being paid comparatively well. Few other people are forced to confront the opposition that comes when your day to day job is holding people accountable for their poor choices.

It's fine. We need to have this degree of accountability - although some things could definitely be tightened up. But it's not something many other people are subject to, nor something that I think many people are really able to grasp as a day to day reality.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I used to be very pro-capital punishment until Brihard annoyingly got me thinking what if the person is innocent.

The numbers are astonishing, apparently.

However, there are those who argue that Canada’s ‘mandatory 25 years before parole’, the Dangerous Offender sentence (one of the most severe anywhere in the ‘free’ world) is worse than execution in some ways.

 

[RedFive]

Having gone back through my previous responses, I want to make it clear I welcome the level of scrutiny I am subject to in the execution of my duties. I do my best to try and remain open minded, and remember that I am on the "inside" and do not perceive things the way the general public does. I try my best to remain free of the "us vs. them" mentality, although I'm not always successful. I also work for a notoriously and unrepentantly closed door organization, where everything is "subject to an investigation" and "will not be commented on at this time". Or, you know, the OPP investigation into senior management refusing to disclose information they have been ordered to by a Court.

All that to say, after months of anti-police narrative coming from the media, government, members of the public I have interacted with et cetera, I find this discussion refreshingly open and easy to partake in, even if not everybody here sees things the way I do.

Thanks.

And, as usual, Brihard has done a much better job of explaining my position than I could.

 

[Eaglelord17]

And very few of those "other households" need to walk into armed situations.  Your comparison is null and void.

Plenty of other people in this country work dangerous jobs as well, I could have easily died at work a month and a half ago. The military a organization where they can literally order you to your death pays significantly less then the police, do they not deserve the same compensation by your logic?

My point is how much money do we need to pay people with a high school education. In a perfect world we would pay everyone infinite money and we would all be happy. However this is the real world and putting in perspective how much money the rest of the population make (who pretty much all meet the minimum standard to get hired for the police education wise) gives a good indication of how much should we really be paying the police. I personally think the RCMP salaries look very reasonable for the job being asked of them. I am not blind and clueless to what they do, I understand how miserable and thankless a job it can be. Ultimately there is risk, but it is also safer to be a cop in 2020 than it ever has been. Crime has been on the decline for decades, body armour has made it so your odds of dying if you actually get into a gun fight are dramatically lower, and the training is significantly better than it has ever been.

I have mentioned before my solution to the growth of government salaries well beyond their private sector counter-parts and that is to tie the wage into a simple base formula. Such as the average salary should be 1.7 time the average Canadian salary (random number pulled out of thin air). As the economy booms and peoples salaries increase so does the government employees. As the economy retracts and the public suffers so does the government employees. This would be the fairest way to do a salary possible.

 

[Remius]

Plenty of other people in this country work dangerous jobs as well, I could have easily died at work a month and a half ago. The military a organization where they can literally order you to your death pays significantly less then the police, do they not deserve the same compensation by your logic?

There are plenty of statistics that back this up. 

https://pursuit.ca/money-work/canadas-dangerous-jobs/

Seems that construction and manufacturing are the biggest ones that can lead to death.

If COVID has taught us anything is that some of the most seemingly insignificant jobs are actually what keeps society going.  At 15$ an hour.  Perspective I guess. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

The military a organization where they can literally order you to your death pays significantly less then the police, do they not deserve the same compensation by your logic?

Captain  PI 10  $8718 a month.  And lots of rungs on that ladder yet...

 

[GR66]

There are plenty of statistics that back this up. 

https://pursuit.ca/money-work/canadas-dangerous-jobs/

Seems that construction and manufacturing are the biggest ones that can lead to death.

If COVID has taught us anything is that some of the most seemingly insignificant jobs are actually what keeps society going.  At 15$ an hour.  Perspective I guess.

Putting some more specific numbers to the above:  https://www.monster.ca/career-advice/article/canada-most-dangerous-jobs-ca

I can't wait for my raise!

;D

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Not sure I'd believe much in there....

"People choose these sorts of jobs for more than just salary and benefits. Today's 6,600 prison guards often work under threatening conditions. Yet they earn an average of $45,000 per year.
A sense of public duty, or civic service, can motivate people to pursue such less-safe professions. However there are all sorts of jobs that are just as dangerous, where intrinsic rewards are few."

Unless some other provinces are making minimum wage to balance that figure out.

 

[mariomike]

The military a organization where they can literally order you to your death pays significantly less then the police, do they not deserve the same compensation by your logic?

I don't know about being ordered to our deaths. This was our departmental SOP about our right to refuse unsafe work,

Paramedics are reminded of their responsibility under the Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43, (1) and (2).2 These sections exclude paramedics from the right to refuse work where the circumstances are inherent in their work and/or if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person.

 

[Remius]

Captain  PI 10  $8718 a month.  And lots of rungs on that ladder yet...

Are Captains comparable to Constables though?  Or would they be more comparable to Staff Sgts or Inspectors?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Are Captains comparable to Constables though?  Or would they be more comparable to Staff Sgts or Inspectors?

Not touching this one.... ;D

 

[brihard]

Are Captains comparable to Constables though?  Or would they be more comparable to Staff Sgts or Inspectors?

Depends. In many cases the constables are having to operate much more independently and make much more consequential decisions, more quickly, with less oversight, and a hell of a lot less backup, and higher consequences of getting it wrong.

Bear in mind that for most police, the majority of their career is spent 'operational', doing the job for real, not in a training or institutional setting.

 

[Haggis]

Depends. In many cases the constables are having to operate much more independently and make much more consequential decisions, more quickly, with less oversight, and a hell of a lot less backup, and higher consequences of getting it wrong.

A scenario akin to Hillier's "strategic corporal".

 

[Jarnhamar]

I bet a strategic corporal came up with this sucker

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/unbelievably-inappropriate-calgary-police-prohibit-distribution-of-offensive-coin


When did the Calgary police start using Kodiak Defence WK180's?

 

[brihard]

A scenario akin to Hillier's "strategic corporal".

Indeed. Very routinely, Cst and Cpls (who aren't paid much more) are making real time operational decisions and taking on responsibilities that CAF would shiver in fear at the prospect of being entrusted to anything less than a Capt or Maj. When it's four guys on shift in a mid sized town town and something serious brews up over night, the five year Cst who's senior and acting as the Cpl that night might have to make some important and fast calls if something goes down. That's to say nothing of the responsibility any of us could end up taking on in serious and complex investigations. I've worked on stuff in the past year where I've been astounded that it's me or in some cases another relatively junior Cst in the chair doing stuff that will have real significance in court on a major matter.

The whole running into danger is, again, just one aspect of the job, and not the bulk of it. the degree of responsibility police routinely have to take on can be very significant, and dwarfs the consequence of what many managers in other professions would face. All the moreso outside a major urban force. In a lot of RCMP detachments across the country, they can go weeks where the Cpl or Sgt is on leave, and there's a constable running all of the operational policing for hours in every direction, as well as running the actual detachment itself and everything that comes with that.

 

[mariomike]

Bear in mind that for most police, the majority of their career is spent 'operational', doing the job for real, not in a training or institutional setting.

Forty hours a week, year after year, responding to 9-1-1 calls must have a cumulative effect on some ( most? ) people.

At least we were on the couch, and had 60 seconds of "chute time" to get the doors up and wheels rolling.

Even harder for the police because, being mobile, they have to immediately drop it into gear and hit the accelerator.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I bet a strategic corporal came up with this sucker

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/unbelievably-inappropriate-calgary-police-prohibit-distribution-of-offensive-coin


When did the Calgary police start using Kodiak Defence WK180's?

:rofl:

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

In exceptionally few circumstances will someone's job put them over and over and over again into situations where people will make such complaints vexatiously or maliciously, nor where the court of public opinion will pursue the matter so belligerently. It's widely known at this point that anyone can select part of a video of a rough arrest (and bad choices ont he part of the suspect often necessitate those), get that video online, make a false claim and name the officer, and it's off to the races. There is no accountability for this. People who make false claims about excessive force, or who dox officers or what have you don't face any repercussions. So I would say it's not at all analogous to Joe from the auto body shop who gets in a drunken brawl on the weekend, eats an assault charge, and gets his name in the small town newspaper. Recognize also that in the case of criminal charges, generally a reasonably high threshold has already been met for charges to be laid. There is not such threshold for the sorts of complaints and public allegations RedFive is talking about.

I've been on the wrong end of a number of public complaints - for racism, for excessive force, for sexual assault in a cell block, for 'unlawful detention' (that one was truly hilarious) and so on and so forth. All but one were utter BS, and the one that I ate I absolutely deserved- not paying enough attention at night, thought I had time at an intersection, and hit the intersection as the light went red. Happened to be in front of an extremely prolific public complainer who had a dash cam. Completely my fault and I owned it. All of the others complaints and the lawsuit I was subjected to were BS and were ruled that way... But absolutely nothing tested those complaints for even so much as plausibility before they were fully pursued. Fortunately I've not been on the wrong end of a 'name and shame', but guys I know have, for situations where they did nothing wrong and where someone is trying to dodge or minimize their own accountability for the thing that got them arrested in the first place.

Now, you can argue, fairly, that in these cases the accountability mechanisms worked, and that facts resulted in the proper decision. I'm good with that. The point I'm making, taking this back to questions of accountability and compensation, is that this is an absolutely constant aspect of the job for anyone working front line. The only protection we have from those who use the system maliciously is due process- disciplinary hearings where we can have counsel, the right to remain silent on allegations we're confronted with, support provided by the union... Being constantly subjected to that degree of scrutiny and - frankly - malice and hatred - takes a toll and forms part of the working conditions that result in police being paid comparatively well. Few other people are forced to confront the opposition that comes when your day to day job is holding people accountable for their poor choices.

It's fine. We need to have this degree of accountability - although some things could definitely be tightened up. But it's not something many other people are subject to, nor something that I think many people are really able to grasp as a day to day reality.

Really?  There are plenty of jobs where people are subjected to tonnes of stress and subjected to numerous complaints.  Teachers, Doctors, Nurses, Bankers, Politicans, basically anyone in the service industry.

If it's a job that serves the public, you're subject to oversight and accountability for your actions.  Unlike Police though, others don't have qualified immunity. 

My wife is a Banker and is subjected to verbal intimidation, name calling, harassment, etc. Almost daily and like Cops, nobody likes Bankers. Try telling someone who is suicidal and on the brink of insolvency that you won't refinance their debts for them even though you may personally want to because you feel compassion for that person but the Underwriter, who is a faceless person, flat out says no.  Not easy but again it comes with the territory of the job.

Even better, part of her compensation package is based on customer satisfaction.  Imagine if police compensation was based on general public satisfaction? 

I don't feel one bit sorry for any Police Officer that gets subjected to any investigations or ends up suffering professionally as a result of those investigations.  Can't handle the heat, go get another job but I would say the same about any job really. 

Police don't have a monopoly on occupational stress.
Lately though, they do seem to have a monopoly on pity parties and an unhealthy amount of people with savior complexes in the ranks.  I could say the same about a number of people in the Military though and numerous Veterans Associations, so the brotherhood of Police Officers is not alone in thay regard.

Indeed. Very routinely, Cst and Cpls (who aren't paid much more) are making real time operational decisions and taking on responsibilities that CAF would shiver in fear at the prospect of being entrusted to anything less than a Capt or Maj. When it's four guys on shift in a mid sized town town and something serious brews up over night, the five year Cst who's senior and acting as the Cpl that night might have to make some important and fast calls if something goes down. That's to say nothing of the responsibility any of us could end up taking on in serious and complex investigations. I've worked on stuff in the past year where I've been astounded that it's me or in some cases another relatively junior Cst in the chair doing stuff that will have real significance in court on a major matter.

The whole running into danger is, again, just one aspect of the job, and not the bulk of it. the degree of responsibility police routinely have to take on can be very significant, and dwarfs the consequence of what many managers in other professions would face. All the moreso outside a major urban force. In a lot of RCMP detachments across the country, they can go weeks where the Cpl or Sgt is on leave, and there's a constable running all of the operational policing for hours in every direction, as well as running the actual detachment itself and everything that comes with that.

This is a very narrow viewpoint of what some trades in the CAF do and I would say is drawn from your own personal experience rather than a broad overview of what different trades and occupations do in the CAF. 

There are trades in the CAF where immense levels of responsibility are placed on junior members all the time.  You can come on a ship sometime and engineering personnel go through a set of Engineering Emergency Drills sometime if you want to see some stress and junior personnel trying to work through and solve what can at times be some complex problems with a ship's engineering systems.  Occasionally, these are real time and when they go sideways, you end up with a Protecteur incident.

As for compensation, I agree with you that the rank and file RCMP aren't paid enough; however, I also think certain Municipal Forces are paid way too much for what they actually do.  A constable compensated $295,000 in a year is ridiculous, that's more than some Doctors are compensated.  Well played by the Union for getting it to this point and the individual officer may pull a lot of over time but that's a massive missuse of taxpayer money and we are being robbed blind.