Question of the Hour

[Michael OLeary]

Assaye

http://www.victorianweb.org/history/crimea/beck/4.html

Wellington first made a name for himself as a military leader in India, where in 1802 he defeated a much larger enemy force. At the village of Assaye, Wesley led 7,000 men and 22 guns in an audacious attack on an enemy force of 40,000 men and over 100 guns. Was this not a foolhardy deed? One of his volunteer soldiers wrote later, "I can assure you, till our troops got the order to advance the fate of the day seemed doubtful; and if the numerous cavalry of the enemy had done their duty I hardly think it possible we could have succeeded" (quoted in Hibbert 1997, 42-43). Wesley carried the day, and for this victory he was named Knight of the Bath. When asked many years later which battle had been his finest, the Duke "was silent for about 10 seconds & then answered, 'Assaye'. He did not add a word" (Ibid.) If, perhaps, Twain did take an event from Wellington's experience in India and move it to the Crimea, in a curious reversal only a few years later another author fictionalized the charge of the Light Brigade â ” and placed it in India (George Meredith's Lord Ormont, 1894). To say that Assaye was his greatest victory is an extraordinary claim, considering all his later triumphs in Spain, to say nothing of Waterloo. Still, one modern historian asserts: "Without question Assaye was the greatest of Arthur Wellesley's Indian victories" (Weller, 194).

 

[redleafjumper]

Michael, I'd sure hate to be in an ambush that you set up!  That was darn quick and as usual 100% correct.
Let's see how you do with this one:

What banned device, ruled to be a dangerous weapon of war, never killed anyone when used as designed?

 

[Michael OLeary]

Could you be referring to the bagpipes, under the Act of Proscription (1747)?

http://www.scotland.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=20680&pagenumber=4

The Act of Proscription, passed in 1747, banned weapons of war and highland dress.

And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That from and after the first day of August, one thousand seven hundred and forty seven, no man or boy, within that part of Great Briton called Scotland, other than shall be employed as officers and soldiers in his Majesty's forces, shall on any pretence whatsoever, wear or put on the clothes commonly called Highland Clothes (that is to say) the plaid, philibeg, or little kilt, trowse, shoulder belts, or any part whatsoever of what peculiarly belongs to the highland garb; and that no tartan, or partly-coloured plaid or stuff shall be used for great coats, or for upper coats; and if any such person shall presume, after the said first day of August, to wear or put on the aforesaid garments or any part of them,

But it didn't ban gaelic. It also didn't specifically ban bagpipes, as is popularly thought - although in the administration of the Act, bagpipes were considered a "weapon of war" and thus included. When the Act of Proscription was repealed, proclamations were issued in English and Gaelic. I think the attitude of the English at this time as regards gaelic was one of ignorance and indifference, as the language remained the first language of many highlanders well into the 1800's. The depopulation of the Highands also undoubtedly contributed to the decline of gaelic.

 

[geo]

Have a bagpipe "open up" on you @ 5AM and tell me about it (sigh)

Some of the Chemical gasses used in WW1 had their roots in Agricultural fertilizers.
Believe the gas Zyclone B used by the Germans in WW2 also 1st designed and used for industrial purposes........

So - ised for purpose originaly designed - not dangerous.......... but killers nevertheless.

 

[redleafjumper]

Yes, another quick response - the great highland bagpipe - the weapon of war that doesn't kill.  Having opened up with them on a few folks myself, I have found that most of the danger is to the player!

What was the first rifle issued to the British Army and what was the first British Army rifle issued in any serious quantity?

 

[reccecrewman]

The whole nine yards refers to the length of the ammunition belt for the .50 cal HMG (waist guns) in the B17 American Bomber of WW2.

That is the correct answer I was seeking.  It certainly is a question thats up in the air to be speculated about, but in the military context, this is the answer I was seeking.  Both the cement truck & scottish kilt theories have a good claim as well.

Cheers

 

[larry Strong]

First issued in serious quantities would be the "Brown Bess".

 

[redleafjumper]

The Brown Bess is not a rifle, it is a smoothbore musket.  A good effort though, anyone else?

 

[geo]

The Martini-Henry Rifle is a weapon of Empire. Unlike the Snider-Enfield it replaced, it was England's first service rifle designed from the ground up as a breechloading metallic cartridge firearm. It protected and served the British Empire and her colonies for over 30 years. This robust weapon utilized a falling block, self-cocking, lever operated, single-shot action designed by Friedrich von Martini of Switzerland. The barrel used the Henry Rifling System, designed by Alexander Henry. Henry Peabody, an American, was actually the father of the Martini action. His design utilized an external hammer to strike a firing pin for cartridge ignition. Mr. Martini's refinement of the design basically consisted of conversion to an internal coiled spring activated striker. Martini's improved design flourished and Mr. Peabody's is nearly forgotten. Later in the British Martini's career, other rifling patterns such as the Metford System and even a system devised at Enfield were adopted. It is therefore common to hear these weapons also referred to as Martini-Enfields or Martini-Metfords. The first Martini adopted for service in the British Army was the M-H Mark I, which entered service in June of 1871. There were an additional three main variations of the Martini-Henry Rifle...the Mark II, III and IV. There were also sub variations of these that are commonly called Patterns. In 1877 a Carbine version of the M-H was entered into service. There are five main variations of the Carbine Model: the M-H Carbine Mark I (a.k.a. Cavalry Carbine), the M-H Garrison Artillery Carbine, the M-H Artillery Carbine Mark I, the M-H Artillery Carbine Mark II, and M-H Artillery Carbine Mark III. Initially, British Military Martinis used the Short Chamber Boxer-Henry .45 Caliber black powder cartridge. The original cartridge case was made of a thin sheet of brass rolled around a mandrel, which was then soldered to an iron base. These cartridges were assembled by the orphaned children of British Soldiers, and were relatively cheap to produce. They were found to be vulnerable to being easily damaged, and produced inferior muzzle velocities. Later, the rolled brass case was replaced by a solid brass version which remedied both of these problems. There was also a Carbine version of the Boxer-Henry .45 Caliber cartridge. This round used a 410 grain bullet with 70 grains of black powder, instead of the 480 grain bullet and 85 grains of powder used in the infantry rifle load. The primary reason for the milder load was that the recoil of the rifle load was very punishing when fired in a carbine, and this was found to be the cause of many failures in prototype carbines. In an emergency, either load could be used in either weapon. When the advantages of small caliber, flatter trajectory, high velocity cartridges became evident, an experimental Martini in .402 caliber was designed. Known as the Enfield-Martini Rifle, these rifles offered superior ballistic performance compared to Martinis in .450 caliber. With the adoption of the .303 caliber service cartridge however, the British realized it would be a supply nightmare having to equip units with .450 Martini-Henry, .303, and .402 Enfield-Martini (not to mention pistol and Gating Gun cartridges as well). Thus, the .402 caliber Enfield-Martinis (of which thousands had already been built) were converted to .450 Martini-Henry caliber, and morphed into to what we know as the "A" and "B" pattern Martini-Henry Mark IV. "C" Pattern Martini-Henry Mark IV's were original manufacture weapons, not conversions from the E-M .402.

 

[redleafjumper]

A lovely rifle and a comprehensive answer, yet unfortunately not the correct one.  Anyone else?  I must confess that I carefully crafted this question so that it was not as google-friendly as some!  I suppose a clue could be that the firearm in question is not a metallic cartridge firearm...

 

[Michael OLeary]

What was the first rifle issued to the British Army and what was the first British Army rifle issued in any serious quantity?

The Ferguson Rifle (first issued), and the Baker Rifle (first significantly issued model).

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~rifles95/rifle.htm

The Ferguson rifle, designed in 1774, was the first English breech-loading rifle made for military use.

http://www.personal.usyd.edu.au/~slaw/SuesPage/baker.htm

The Baker Rifle claims the distinction of having the longest service life of any rifle used by the British Army. It was in production from 1800 to 1838, and there are records of issues as late as 1841. It is even mentioned as having been used by troops in the Kaffir Wars of 1851.

 

[geo]

What was the first rifle issued to the British Army and what was the first British Army rifle issued in any serious quantity?

The Ferguson rifle, designed in 1774, was the first English breech-loading rifle made for military use. Colonel Patrick Ferguson submitted an order for the manufacture of 100 of these rifles used to arm a detachment in the American war. The rifles were used with great effect, but unfortunately Ferguson was seriously wounded in 1777, and was later killed. On his death General Howe had the Ferguson rifles placed in store. Following the cessation of hostilities, further trials with rifles were largely abandoned
... considering the usage 100 units - not a significant number.........

The Baker rifle.
The most successful barrel design was that of Ezekiel Baker, a London Gunsmith. While there are no records, it appears that Baker, in consultation with Coote Manningham of the new Rifle Corps, oversaw the development of the rest of the rifle around his barrel. While there were minor modifications over the years, this original pattern was recognisably the model for all Bakers over the weapon's 40 year life.

OK - concede that the Baker fits the bill sort of
followed by the Snyder Enfield, followed by the Martini Henry

that non metalic cartridge...... ugh!

 

[redleafjumper]

Good answers and very nearly complete ones.  However the rest of the story is that the British did issue German Jaeger rifles, about 1,000, to troops in the British Army in North America in 1776 at about the same time or slightly before the 100 Ferguson rifles were issued.  About 800 were made in England and 200 came from Hanover.  The Fergusons, while they were the first "breech-loading rifle" were not the first rifles - those 1,000 Jaegers were.

The Baker Rifle is of course the first rifle issued as a serious rifle in quantity and also one of the longest served  rifles in British service. 

On a different note, who was Ron Brittain?

 

[Danjanou]

Well the first thing my search engine turned up was this: http://pnwbands.com/everyday.html

Something tells me you weren't referring to the Bass player of an obscure 1970's band though.
So I would presume this is what you're looking for.

As we were getting settled, the PMC (President of the Mess Committee) of the Guards OCTU's Sergeant's Mess very kindly extended to us an invitation to use their Mess facilities until such time as our full unit arrived and we set up a mess of our own. It was quite an experience - the Guards, of course, are some of the elite of the British Army - their Sergeants and Warrant Officers were all in the regular army - not "hostilities only" types such as we were. Unfortunately, this caused a few problems as time went by.
I think the first thing they did that was very irritating was to refer to us always as "you ZZXXing Colonials."That phrase started more than one donnybrook.

Their Regimental Sgt. Major was Ron Brittain - he was with the Grenadier Guards and was the second most senior RSM in the entire British Army. And, oh boy, did he know it!! He lived with his family in married quarters and went to and from the barracks on an army issue bicycle - the only man I ever knew who rode a bicycle sitting stiffly at attention. Some of our Dispatch Riders (who were a wild bunch at the best of times) no doubt had a bit too much to drink one day and ran along side of him on his bicycle - throwing their hats in the air and shouting "Ride 'Em Cowboy!!" He marched them all to the Guard House and threatened to throw away the key.

From: http://www.dadswar.com

 

[redleafjumper]

Very close!  Regimental Sergeant Major Ronald Brittain, MBE, The Coldstream Guards, senior RSM in the British Army at retirement, loudest voice in the army.  He had just under forty years service, retired 1954.  His biography is in James Leasor's book "The Serjeant-Major".


What is the maximum number of World War Two stars, not counting bars, that could be awarded to an individual?  Which ones might carry bars and what are they?

(I'm really enjoying this thread!)

 

[larry Strong]

(I'm really enjoying this thread!)

Yes I am really enjoying this thread also. Not only that but I am reminded of an acronyym "RTFQ" ;D

 

[Bill Smy]

Hey Guys  I'm not a moderator, so I don't know whether it is appropriate for me to make this comment.

But, when you're replying, could you indicate right off the bat to what you're replying to. I read one submission on the Baker rifle and the next is on an RSM. I'm a bit of a dimwit, but it would be so much easier if there was some reference to the earlier message.

 

[redleafjumper]

Okay Bill, good point. When I am responding to what appears to be the previous post, I don't usually quote from it.  Perhaps my habit of providing the correct response to a question that I have asked and then prompty posing a new question might be a little confusing!  I'll try to post the referent in the future.  Sorry about that!

 

[geo]

Redleaf - might be an idea to start numbering the questions - that way it would be simple to make reference to that....

Just an idea - and you can use whatever number you want.

 

[redleafjumper]

Sure Geo, numbering the Question may also work.

Anyway, how about those World War 2 campaign stars?

1.  What is the maximum number of World War Two stars, not counting bars, that could be awarded to an individual?   Which ones might carry bars and what are they?