Purple Trades: Definition & Trg Discussion

[McG]

Bottom line, if you are ordered to do something  you do it, unless its manifestly unlawful.

The problem would not be that people have refused training.  My observation is that the training has not been offered & the resources are not there to do it.

There is more than just SQ as well.  A junior leader operating outside the wire needs the PLQ-L.  While Land Environmental Training (LET) existed but was not happening, I am not aware that any Land Leader Training even exists to top-up someone from CFPLQ to PLQ-L.

Just in time enviromental training has not been achieving the requirement.  The resources do not exist for universal qualification.  Environmental specialization (you are not just a cook, you are an Army Cook) seems to be a reasonable middle ground.

I'm not suggesting this is a perfect solution either.  Air cooks, sup techs, etc should (as ground trades) be doing the SQ along with the Army types.  We are not there but the CANFORGEN illustrates that there is movement.

You need to spend some time in a Purple Trade then and watch people start to sweat once talk of a posting to a Field unit comes up. 

I've seen it.  Those will be the problem children through this transition.  The ones that will fight both a move & a change of environment.

 

[armyvern]

The problem would not be that people have refused training.  My observation is that the training has not been offered & the resources are not there to do it.

This is incorrect. Until this CANFORGEN, we could and have sent many purple people wearing blue & black onto SQ courses which thereby meant they could be posted to 1st line field Units here at this location upon it's successful completion.

Now, we are not even allowed to nominate them for course, ergo there are some 1st Line positions that we can not post them into. Our manning pool for persons to fill those priority 2 Land Op positions ... has just been pillaged and plundered. And, it has been done at the expense of those Ptes/Cpls of green wearing type. That's the facts.

There is more than just SQ as well.  A junior leader operating outside the wire needs the PLQ-L.  While Land Environmental Training (LET) existed but was not happening, I am not aware that any Land Leader Training even exists to top-up someone from CFPLQ to PLQ-L.

Just in time enviromental training has not been achieving the requirement.  The resources do not exist for universal qualification.  Environmental specialization (you are not just a cook, you are an Army Cook) seems to be a reasonable middle ground.

I'm not suggesting this is a perfect solution either.  Air cooks, sup techs, etc should (as ground trades) be doing the SQ along with the Army types.  We are not there but the CANFORGEN illustrates that there is movement.
I've seen it.  Those will be the problem children through this transition.  The ones that will fight both a move & a change of environment.

SQ was not a "just-in-time" course for us -- it was a pre-requisite for some of those Sup Field positions. When we nominated pers for the SQ ... they got it. Until last week. It IS still a pre-req for those 1st line postings -- that hasn't changed. Only now only some Sup Techs (green ones) are required to fulfill their whole and total roles of job.

Reasonable middle ground - again: would have had them fixing the uniform colour mess BEFORE deeming 1/2 these pers sitting in land op positions "not suitable for SQ by virtue of uniform colour". And, it would have our "trade" fixed to be three seperate merit boards once again -- because it is NOT obviously the same job, nor job specs anymore.

Essentially, what they have done is deemed 1/2 the Sup techs sitting here "unfit field" -- try doing that in a non-purple trade in the hard army and see what happens to both the morale of those who must now carry on getting that "field" job done with 1/2 the resources ... while the other half sits merrily back smiling. That IS what has just happened with this CANFORGEN to the purple trades.

How about we do that to the Infantry and see how we make out? Kind of like "No blond infanteers are allowed to proceed through Battle School and therefore can not proceed onto their jobs in 1st line field Unit." No one ... (except me) would ever even DARE suggest that as an appropriate COA. Yet we now have "No blue or black Sup techs are allowed to proceed on SQ and therefore can not proceed onto their jobs in 1st line field Unit".

 

[OldSolduer]

I knew that we'd have problems when we went  to the DEU's. We now have people saying "I'm this or that" and "I don't go to the field (or sea)".

Sorry to disappoint you lot who "don't go to the field". You are extremely fortunate that I, and a few others on this forum and not on this forum, aren't in charge.
You'd say "I don't go to the field (or sea)" exactly once. You would get your 30 days NTM.....out the front gate.

 

[McG]

Vern,
The CANFORGEN does not unqualify anybody that was qualified (there will just be nobody new of the Air or Navy environments becoming qualified).  If someone that has completed the SQ course want to pretend otherwise, give them a field task & charge them when they refuse based on colour of their clothing. 

If the problem is that people are already in jobs that require SQ but these people do not have SQ, then this illustrates the failure of just-in-time training (either for operations or postings).  I have observed this failure of the just-in-time training approach through the presence of people in land field units & on land operations without the land qualifications.  I know the problem exists.

I will admit, some of my comment has been idealist divining of the future.  Nothing officially is stated of creating land sub-MOS of the applicable purple MOS (though it has effectively happened through different training and resulting employability), nothing is stated officially of posting pers to units of their own environment (though this will become essential to making the whole thing work), and nothing is stated officially that the Navy will adopt a similar enviromental specialization approach (though it makes sense to follow if the Army is doing it).

As I have indicated, there will be growing pains but this is a workable solution once we get past them.

 

[OldSolduer]

The solution is already there:

Hard Army types do SQ as a matter of function.
Naval and Air, I presume, have a unique qualification.

Anyone posted to a land unit, if not qualified SQ, goes on the SQ course. Period. I know LFWA TC runs them, so what is to prevent a unit from running an anuual SQ for the purple types who are not SQ qualified?

 

[armyvern]

Vern,
The CANFORGEN does not unqualify anybody that was qualified (there will just be nobody new of the Air or Navy environments becoming qualified).  If someone that has completed the SQ course want to pretend otherwise, give them a field task & charge them when they refuse based on colour of their clothing. 

If the problem is that people are already in jobs that require SQ but these people do not have SQ, then this illustrates the failure of just-in-time training (either for operations or postings).  I have observed this failure of the just-in-time training approach through the presence of people in land field units & on land operations without the land qualifications.  I know the problem exists.

I will admit, some of my comment has been idealist divining of the future.  Nothing officially is stated of creating land sub-MOS of the applicable purple MOS (though it has effectively happened through different training and resulting employability), nothing is stated officially of posting pers to units of their own environment (though this will become essential to making the whole thing work), and nothing is stated officially that the Navy will adopt a similar enviromental specialization approach (though it makes sense to follow if the Army is doing it).

As I have indicated, there will be growing pains but this is a workable solution once we get past them.

Do you realize that approx 1/2 of the CF Supply trade are not of the Army variety? They have just pillaged and plundered our trades manning pool.

I certainly realize that some Air & Naval DEU already have the SQ qual and therefore can be posted to 1st line filed Units with that pre-req still.

The problem is that we have people who were slated in for postings to 1st line field Units who required the SQ ... and, until last week, were going on the SQ. Now, we get to can them as we can't qualify them. Now, we are re-sending Army wearing boys/girls who have only just returned to base Supply from 1st Line posns. Or sending non-QL4 qual'd Army Sup techs instead (a no-no, but heck -- they're the only ones left that can do the SQ and actually get posted there).

By the time they get to implemeting their "ideal solution" -- they'll have very few Army Sup techs left. They'll all be on 1/2 days due to stress leave and therefore "unfit field" too. I say -- go with ASD. My trade -- is hurting, as are all the purple trades and we are the smallest bleep on the Big Armies radar. Yep, morale and retention are good all right ... and moves like this are just making it soooo much better. All this has accomplished is our purple ability to support YOU - the Army. And, you think everyone bitched before about the "lack of supply system" -- just wait for it.

I fear, we have entered a storm this time that we will not recover from. Not judging by the comments, morale, and lack of GAFF anymore by those green-wearing Suppies here today that are the ones stuck "MAKING" this miracle happen ... from the bottom on up.

 

[armyvern]

The solution is already there:

Hard Army types do SQ as a matter of function.
Naval and Air, I presume, have a unique qualification.

Anyone posted to a land unit, if not qualified SQ, goes on the SQ course. Period. I know LFWA TC runs them, so what is to prevent a unit from running an anuual SQ for the purple types who are not SQ qualified?

CANFORGEN 101/08 is EXACTLY what prevents this.

Other than that, your proposed solution is EXACTLY what WAS occuring ... until last week and that CANFORGEN. Give it a read.

 

[OldSolduer]

Thanks Vern I will give it a read.

Vern, you have also shed light on why a certain Wing Clothing Stores has severely reduced hours. Shall I PM you with the location and hours?

 

[armyvern]

Thanks Vern I will give it a read.

Vern, you have also shed light on why a certain Wing Clothing Stores has severely reduced hours. Shall I PM you with the location and hours?

Oh ... let me guess which Wg that is ...

Sure, send me a PM. 

 

[McG]

The problem is that we have people who were slated in for postings to 1st line field Units who required the SQ ... and, until last week, were going on the SQ.

I see the problem here.  It would have been better for the CANFORGEN to have come out in the fall when it could guide the posting plot as opposed to making things react when the posting messages are already out.  Even better would have been an implementation instruction allowing air and navy types of the affected MOS to complete the SQ training starting any time over the next 6 months in order to accommodate the current APS.

The solution is already there:

Hard Army types do SQ as a matter of function.
Naval and Air, I presume, have a unique qualification.

Anyone posted to a land unit, if not qualified SQ, goes on the SQ course. Period. I know LFWA TC runs them, so what is to prevent a unit from running an anuual SQ for the purple types who are not SQ qualified?

This solution does not address PLQ-L.

Other than that, your proposed solution is EXACTLY what WAS occuring ... until last week and that CANFORGEN. Give it a read.

But it was not happening uniformly.  I've seen far too many exceptions were pers were in land units without this training.

 

[OldSolduer]

What we need is firm direction from the top. I mean the CDS, CLS, CMS, CAS and CMP.
Anyone posted to a field unit requires SQ. Period. NO exceptions.
The PLQ-L problem is a bit more complex. Those who are qualified under other elements may need to undergo a conversion course to PLQ-L.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Why?  It's doubtful the CC or Chief Cook in a CER  or armd regiment will ever have to lead a section attack or a recce patrol.

 

[OldSolduer]

I will tell you why Kat. They may never have to lead a sectioin attack or a recce patrol. Heaven knows they are the last ones I'd want in that position.
They have to know because as the CC or Chief Cook, they are responsible for their people. They also have to know how to defend themselves in case everything has fallen to cr@p.
A CC or cook who can't load a weapon and fire it is a casualty. Period.

 

[McG]

Why?

Because our enemy, both insurgent & conventional, will work to avoid our combat forces and attack those weakest elements that will cause the greatest disruption.  If the CC cannot direct the OR in a battle of self-defence, then they will die fighting as a group of individuals.

The risk is even more pronounced for supply and transport types who regularly go out into bandit country as part of their duties.

Things can go pear-shaped in conventional and COIN Ops.  Be prepared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lynch

 

[X-mo-1979]

I will tell you why Kat. They may never have to lead a sectioin attack or a recce patrol. Heaven knows they are the last ones I'd want in that position.
They have to know because as the CC or Chief Cook, they are responsible for their people. They also have to know how to defend themselves in case everything has fallen to cr@p.
A CC or cook who can't load a weapon and fire it is a casualty. Period.

I agree 100%.
Maybe this will start seperating the wheat from the chaff with what type of per's get posted to combat units.

Quick question to Vern:

Wouldnt this be solved if they made the supply tech trade a Army hard trade?As then they would ALL have SQ and PLQ-land which seem to be to a higher standard anyway?Still able to post them to a ship/airbase,however with being hard army then they could easily get posted back to a combat unit?

Train them to the highest level (which from what your saying is the army SQ and PLQ-L) then there is no problem.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I will tell you why Kat. They may never have to lead a sectioin attack or a recce patrol. Heaven knows they are the last ones I'd want in that position.
They have to know because as the CC or Chief Cook, they are responsible for their people. They also have to know how to defend themselves in case everything has fallen to cr@p.
A CC or cook who can't load a weapon and fire it is a casualty. Period.

Understood, but a PLQ (whatever it's called this week) qualification is a PLQ qualification.  If a guy manages to go 12 or better years working in his own environment, then gets your "go army or get out" message, goes on an SQ course, THEN needs to do field portion of PLQ (again)?  My question was in response to you PLQ L comment only I'm not stupid enough (barely) to think that everyone doesn't have the responsibility for their own protection.  When was the last time the OR van sat out in the BAP without about 18 layers of other troops around it?

 

[PMedMoe]

Wouldnt this be solved if they made the supply tech trade a Army hard trade?As then they would ALL have SQ and PLQ-land which seem to be to a higher standard anyway?Still able to post them to a ship/airbase,however with being hard army then they could easily get posted back to a combat unit?

Train them to the highest level (which from what your saying is the army SQ and PLQ-L) then there is no problem.

And what about the other purple trades affected by this CANFORGEN?

COOK (L)

SUP TECH (L)

TFC TECH (L)

MSE OP (L)

RMS CLK (L)

 

[rifleman]

Even if they maintain everyone should have an SQ, they will soon find there wasn't the resources to do it, just like they did in the first place. What is the major difference between PLQs?

 

[X-mo-1979]

And what about the other purple trades affected by this CANFORGEN?

COOK (L)

SUP TECH (L)

TFC TECH (L)

MSE OP (L)

RMS CLK (L)

Again make them all army.Doesnt seem right to send a guy on a cf plq,then post him from Greenwood to Petawawa,make him do his SQ and PLQ L.why not make them all army?

 

[meni0n]

It seems alot of things were overlooked and some just blatanly ignored when they came out with the CANFORGEN.