Purple Trades: Definition & Trg Discussion

[Drummy]

I still say everyone who joins the CF should undergo SQ, NO MATTER what element.

And where does the Regular Force Lilac Trade(Musician) fit into this? Remember, there are only two Reg Force Army Band left. The closest one of these people will come to deploying is playing a recruiting concert at the local high school. I will admit though, that can be quite dangerous depending on the location.

Drummy

 

[dapaterson]

? At least 3 Reg F bands - Ottawa, the RCA band, and the Van Doos... and probably one or more in the Navy as well...

And musicians are perhaps a trade we could easily abolish from the Reg F (at least) - what's the value added in having a collection of pseudo-Sergeants?  In Ottawa, at a change of appointment ceremony for a MGen, I was more than a little shocked to see that the Air Force band in Ottawa could only muster a string quartet for the ceremony... and I don't care what you say, "O Canada" by strings does not cut it.

EDIT to add:  Sorry, I misready Drummy's comment - he refers to only 2 Reg F ARMY bands.  I've still got quibbles with the current structure and employment of the trade - frills and frippery that adds little that we can't get more affordably from other places - particularly since we don't deploy bandsmen anywhere.  Indeed, we hire musicians to entertain the troops overseas, and leave military musicians at home.  Something doesn't ring true there...

 

[OldSolduer]

Reg Force Bands: Yes they should be SQ qualified.

They should also be qualified SMP wheel vehicle drivers and trained to fulifill other functions as well including op tours.

In the British Army, the Corps of Bugles of the Royal Green Jackets were also the medics for the Royal Green Jackets.

As far as I'm concerned, Reg Force bands are a waste of money. Make them all Reserve Force bands if they don't want to soldier with the rest of us.
We have musicians in the PRes who are willing to go on op tours, who are qualified as drivers etc.

 

[danchapps]

I'm very sorry, but personnel joined the CF, not the Army, not the Air Force, and not the Navy. They applied. They chose a trade. And, IF they chose a purple trade - they were then either "offered" a uniform colour OR assigned one. But, the TRADE (ie JOB) choice came first. Now, apparently the JOB comes second. I have serious issues with that.

I have serious issues with that precisely because I am a Supply tech. Period. I have completed all three enviornmental courses when my postings to those enviornments necessitated it. I didn't complain. I didn't whine. I just did my job. I happen to wear a green uniform. My trade -- was MY choice, and after I picked that trade they asked what DEU I wanted.
If the move was to send Land to Land, Air to Air etc of the purple types ... then they should have implemented that policy change BEFORE they implemented this change that takes away 1/2 our local Sup techs here that are actually able to DO the WHOLE job.

Thank you Vern, you pretty much nailed what I was trying to get across a couple of days ago.

As well, to the others, the reason I seemed a bit miffed was due to the fact I wanted to get some sea time in before becoming "hard" army. I would like to, at some point, serve with each branch of the forces, not necessarily wear the uniform of each, but to work in close conjunction to know how they run things, thus making me more effective at my job. I had made my 3 posting choices knowing that all 3 bases were very much hurting for supply techs, and wound up getting a 4th base. Oh well, maybe when my Edmonton time is up I'll get it.

 

[Drummy]

Reg Force Bands: Yes they should be SQ qualified.

They should also be qualified SMP wheel vehicle drivers and trained to fulifill other functions as well including op tours.

In the British Army, the Corps of Bugles of the Royal Green Jackets were also the medics for the Royal Green Jackets.

As far as I'm concerned, Reg Force bands are a waste of money. Make them all Reserve Force bands if they don't want to soldier with the rest of us.
We have musicians in the PRes who are willing to go on op tours, who are qualified as drivers etc.

Old Solduer,

You are definitely one of the reasons that Professional musician of the Forces mistrust and even dislike

Oh crap, I can't finish this right now, or I,m going to get banned from here.


ps: the highlighted part does not concern the CF, and a Corp pf Bugles does not a band of professional musicians make.

 

[OldSolduer]

Too Bad Drummy:
I've heard horror stories regarding Reg Force bands. I've heard from reliable sources that their existence is being questioned at higher levels.
I have to question that as well. We pay a load of Sgts to do nothing but play music. What's the return? I really don't see one.
I worked next door to the PPCLI Band for three years. I found them to be arrogant and condescending towards the 031s, while wearing OUR hat badge. They were a bunch of prissy prima donnas who wouldn't associate with any other military members, on or off duty.

SO get upset and angry. I don't care. I think Reg Force Bands are a waste of time and money, and the money saved from these prima donnas woiuld be better off invested in local PRes bands.

 

[armyvern]

And where does the Regular Force Lilac Trade(Musician) fit into this? Remember, there are only two Reg Force Army Band left. The closest one of these people will come to deploying is playing a recruiting concert at the local high school. I will admit though, that can be quite dangerous depending on the location.

Drummy

Hmmm. How about The 2RCR Pipes & Drums (we're up to 4 Reg Force Army bands now ...)

linked here to a pic

It would seem that some of them have deployment medals on their chests. I recall issuing a few more of them their AR cadpat for 1-07 as well.

 

[armyvern]

As far as I'm concerned, Reg Force bands are a waste of money. Make them all Reserve Force bands if they don't want to soldier with the rest of us.
We have musicians in the PRes who are willing to go on op tours, who are qualified as drivers etc.

Seems there are a few people on this forum taking Drummy's statement as factual.

Look at the pics ladies & gents. See the medals? They DO deploy after all.

 

[dapaterson]

2 RCR P&D is a voluntary sub-unit - where 031s play the pipes and drums on a volunteer basis (though there may be some voluntolding, I don't know enough about the history there).  They are not musicians.  They do not deply as musicians - if you look at the task brick for deployment, they are not going over as "The Pipes and Drums".

 

[OldSolduer]

dapaterson has it right. 2 RCR Pipes and Drums are soldiers first. They are 031 by trade, as is the PPCLI Corps of Drums. They deploy as soldiers, not musicians.
I know that the Patricias appreciated the Corps of Drums far more than the PPCLI Band.

We're off topic. Again.

 

[McG]

I don't see anywhere in this thread that this idea was suggested. Not all purple Supply Techs will be posted to Sea, to Land Force, or to Air Ops positions. But, they certainly COULD be ... and when they are posted to those posns -- they should be required to complete the enviornmental course for the applicable element. Period. Full Stop. That's their job.

That is how it was in theory, and it did not work out that cleanly.  Junior leaders were making their way into land units and land operations (even outside the wire jobs) with CFPLQ and not PLQ-L.  Troops were even making it into these positions without SQ or LET.  The CANFORGEN made mention toward limited training capacity, so training everyone is apparently not an option.  The solution, and it can be seen in the CANFORGEN, is to designate specifically those personnel who will support the land environment and then to ensure those personnel get the specific training required.  The next step for this is that the Navy Sup Tech all do NETP.  Each supports its own environment operationally & domestically.

If the move was to send Land to Land, Air to Air etc of the purple types ...

While not the purpose of the CANFORGEN, this is the effect it will achieve.

... personnel joined the CF, not the Army, not the Air Force, and not the Navy. They applied. They chose a trade. And, IF they chose a purple trade - they were then either "offered" a uniform colour OR assigned one. But, the TRADE (ie JOB) choice came first. Now, apparently the JOB comes second. I have serious issues with that.

The job has not become second.  It is quite clearly first and it has simply become segregated into more focused streams.  You joined the CF in a purple trade.  The CF has since decided that contemporary land combat is sufficiently complicated that participants require more focused training.  The jack of all environments is no longer adequate for land ops.  You are now a green sub-MOS of a purple MOS.

It achieves the intent?

Can you explain how then, we now have over 25 pers who can NOT undergo the necessary course required to fill pri 2 positions here? Ergo, they'll sit in the cosy Base Pri 6 ones, while the Army types go round and round out in the not-so-cosy pri 2 field Units?

The "intent" as I described it was to ensure personnel fully trained for land operations are the personnel deploying on land operations.  The CANFORGEN absolutely will achieve this (and we were not achieving it under the previous system).  It will, as you point out, come with some growing pains and there will be a permanent reduction in employment flexibility (pers will now have to be employed within the environment for which they are trained).

I also recognize the potential for disappointment in people who joined with the intention of serving in every environment.  Here again, those pers all joined to serve the CF & the CF needs their services to focus on a specific environment now.

Unfortunately, the CMs are going to have to DIRECT uniform colour changes, because I'll tell you the old gals around here in blue and black still can't wipe the damn chesire grins off their mugs and you won't be seeing them volunteering for anything anytime soon. ...

Absolutely.  It will be "here is your posting message, if you don't accept it then you will be transfered to the Land environment tomorrow and booked for the next available SQ."

[quote author=http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/2rcr/html/pipes_e.html ]all members of the band are regular force soldiers who volunteer from within the Battalion.[/quote]
We are talking about different beasts wrt the bands.  In one case it is bands maintained by units in which the band is a secondary duty and all members have primary operational functions within the unit.  In the other case, we are talking about bands in which all members are musicians by occupation and without another operational function.

 

[Drummy]

2 RCR P&D is a voluntary sub-unit - where 031s play the pipes and drums on a volunteer basis (though there may be some voluntolding, I don't know enough about the history there).  They are not musicians.  They do not deply as musicians - if you look at the task brick for deployment, they are not going over as "The Pipes and Drums".

DA Paterson,

Right. All RCR bns have volunteer bands.(Non-professional)  PPCLI, I.m not sure, but probably the same. The only Inf Regt that has a Regimental Band is the Van Doos. The RCR and PPCLI Bands were junked in 1992. Actually so was the Van Doo Band, but politics brought them back. There is also the RCA Band out west. A navy Band each coast, and Airforce in Winnipeg, and Ottawa. How many reserve bands there are throughout the forces I don't know.

So 6(SIX) only Regular Forces professional bands.

Drummy

ps: some Reg Force  Volunteer Pipe Bands have an 871 Piper and an 871 Drummer attached.

 

[armyvern]

2 RCR P&D is a voluntary sub-unit - where 031s play the pipes and drums on a volunteer basis (though there may be some voluntolding, I don't know enough about the history there).  They are not musicians.  They do not deply as musicians - if you look at the task brick for deployment, they are not going over as "The Pipes and Drums".

They are a RegF entity no? The are Army reg Force yes? They deploy yes? And, yes - they volunteer (plenty of them too) to be a musician within that Army Reg Force Unit's band.

So, they don't deploy as band members -- isn't THAT a good thing? Isn't that what the complaints are about below?? I just wanted to point out that they do actually exist with a soldier first mentality, but you'd never get that by reading the comments on this thread so far.

Come on down and let them know they aren't musicians -- there's a whole bunch of them who'd beg to differ with you -- they just happen to be "soldiers first".

 

[garb811]

I wonder what the effect on recruting is going to be once word of this gets out.  How many candidates are going to hold out for a blue or black uniform as opposed to accepting green?  What happens when the blue and black quotas are filled but there aren't enough green to go into the roto pool?  Will some of the blue and black be directed to change uniforms?  This has the potential to make manning even worse, right from the start of the entire process. 

 

[McG]

I would not assume that there would be a particular aversion to Land Sup Tech at the CFRCs.  We manage to hire people into infantry despite the hardships associated with that occupation.  It could be that Air Force is the environment people avoid because it is the one that comes without the adventure of sea or the field. 

 

[OldSolduer]

Here's the solution:

If  X, a supply tech at CFB Wherever whose DEU is Naval, refuses to go on an SQ because he has been tasked to deploy to Afghanistan, gets 30 days notice and is out the door. Good bye. Same goes for Y, an RMS clerk whose DEU is Army, refuses to go to sea. Out....good bye.
If Z, an MSE OP who wears Air DEU volunteers to go to Afghanistan but is not SQ qualified...then he/she goes on SQ and gets sent to Afghanistan.

Bottom line, if you are ordered to do something  you do it, unless its manifestly unlawful.

 

[armyvern]

Here's the solution:

If  X, a supply tech at CFB Wherever whose DEU is Naval, refuses to go on an SQ because he has been tasked to deploy to Afghanistan, gets 30 days notice and is out the door. Good bye. Same goes for Y, an RMS clerk whose DEU is Army, refuses to go to sea. Out....good bye.
If Z, an MSE OP who wears Air DEU volunteers to go to Afghanistan but is not SQ qualified...then he/she goes on SQ and gets sent to Afghanistan.

Bottom line, if you are ordered to do something  you do it, unless its manifestly unlawful.

Another post that I can agree with. Miracles in motion today I tell you.

 

[garb811]

You need to spend some time in a Purple Trade then and watch people start to sweat once talk of a posting to a Field unit comes up.   ;D

Yes, some people enjoy and thrive in that environment but I'm not willing to bet there are enough of those types to man the positions required to keep the Army running.

 

[armyvern]

I would not assume that there would be a particular aversion to Land Sup Tech at the CFRCs.  We manage to hire people into infantry despite the hardships associated with that occupation.  It could be that Air Force is the environment people avoid because it is the one that comes without the adventure of sea or the field. 

Oh, but it comes with some pretty jammy goes (4000 thread count sheets on your bed for example  ) -- and tours if you want them (I managed to snag some of both type during my 6 years with them).  ;D

 

[OldSolduer]

I've been in the CF for over 30 years. I was posted to CFRS Cornwallis and was told if I refused, I would be released within 30 days. Not that I would have refused, but that was the deal. And it was CF policy.
The air types at CFRS were all volunteers, most were former Army, Cbt Arms. They told me that some non-former army air types refused postings and got away with it. (I hope this doesn' t confuse anyone)
It seems things haven't changed much.
Vern, you are correct. We joined the CF. We ALL signed the line and acknowledege that we may have to pay the ultimate price.

I had someone tell me once that if the USSR ever went to war with NATO, there would be three people missing: Him and the two MPs sent to find him. Even though were were the same rank (Privates) he got raked over the coals for that. He took his release a year or so later.