Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled

[The Bread Guy]

Silly question - re:  this bit from the story:

The thinking behind the policy is that failing to complete assignments is a behavioural issue and marks should reflect ability, not behaviour.

How do you measure ability in a way that doesn't involve SOME type of behaviour?  Even according to Bloom's Taxonomy, the student has to DO something to show they know something:

.... Knowledge: Recall data or information.

Examples: Recite a policy. Quote prices from memory to a customer. Knows the safety rules.

Key Words: defines, describes, identifies, knows, labels, lists, matches, names, outlines, recalls, recognizes, reproduces, selects, states.

Comprehension .... comprehends, converts, defends, distinguishes, estimates, explains, extends, generalizes, gives an example, infers, interprets, paraphrases, predicts, rewrites, summarizes, translates.

Application .... applies, changes, computes, constructs, demonstrates, discovers, manipulates, modifies, operates, predicts, prepares, produces, relates, shows, solves, uses

Analysis ....  analyzes, breaks down, compares, contrasts, diagrams, deconstructs, differentiates, discriminates, distinguishes, identifies, illustrates, infers, outlines, relates, selects, separates ....

If someone needs alternate ways of being tested, I'd be surprised if they wouldn't be provided if requested. 

If alternate means are available, and they're not accessed, too bad, so sad.

 

[ttlbmg]

Assessing a mark of zero does not equate to assessing behaviour.  It says that, in the specific subject at hand that we are studying (let's say graphing in the larger picture of calculus) you have not handed anything in so I cannot properly assess HOW you are doing, so you get a zero.  In the one assignment on Pythagorean theory, you may have received 80%, but the whole course is not based on that topic, so I can't give you that grade for the course.

The logic of not applying a zero to that is saying that because you have not handed anything in, I can't tell what you know, so therefore, I don't know if you know nothing (as a zero applies) or if you know the entire concept and CHOSE not to hand something in. (because then the zero is more reflective of the behaviour, or at least that is the idea) I am not saying that I agree or disagree with it, I am simply stating the policy. In the article, the teacher states that teachers have to look the assessments handed in, compiled with the exams they administered, and, using their PROFESSIONAL judgment, create a student mark. Some teachers look at a large number of incomplete or not turned in assignments and, without putting a zero in that slot, reduce a student's mark, explaining that they can not say that just because "Billy" knows Pythagorean theory, doesn't mean he knows complex trigonometry. (let's say from that 80% down to a 65%) Some teachers let the mark stand as is. What is the correct mark? What way best tells us what that kid can do?

 

[ModlrMike]

I think the teacher in question had a relatively fair approach in giving the delinquent students another chance to hand in the work. Some would say he was too lenient. If we want to call this a behavioral issue, then learning that bad behavior results in bad outcomes is an appropriate part of fixing the problem. This is no more complex than "don't do all the work, don't get all the marks".

In the real world, real outcomes are affected. If I don't do all the work, someone dies. These are the future doctors, nurses, engineers, aircraft mechanics, drivers etc that will be responsible for our lives at some point. I would rather they understand the value of timely and diligent study long before they get to the post secondary level.

 

[KanD]

I have been a teaching assistant (TA) at a university for a year now. When I asked a few Professors (now in their senior) why students that do not perform are being allowed to move onto second and third year subjects, their answers were:

1. Universities are (apparently) required to allow for students to develop their emotional intelligence and personal writing styles;
2. Students will be failed and evaluated with stricter 'academic rigor' once they reach third/fourth year subjects;
3. (related to the second point) Certain universities are more interested in operating as a business by enforcing lax grading standards during the first years (this might be related to the fact that, more often that not,  part-time/junior/adjunct staff teach at that level) and whipping students into shape during the last year before graduation. The students that fail final year courses are thus kept in the system longer, requiring them to pay tuition for longer periods of time (in the end, students are the primary client); and
4. (also related to the second point) International students now occupy a significant amount of seats available within universities. Since they pay a lot more than domestic students (using my program as an example, I pay $7158, an international student will pay $25,242), universities can generate more income by accepting international students and subjecting them to the same questionable grading standards. The difference with international students, they are allowed a finite amount of tries at passing before they are removed from the university.

Points 3 & 4 will never be acknowledged by any university administration, you need to experience it first hand.
IMHO, something needs to be done. At the moment, the students are running the show and are not allowing for the teaching/learning process to occur. They want to be spoofed the essential information, and only what they need in order to make it in the job market. On the other hand, my first employer said to me 'Our first task here is to make you 'unlearn' the majority of the crap you were taught at school'.

On another note, would any of you have any advice to give to a TA in my position that has to deal with whinny students after failing them? I spend more time going over my formal complaints than I do on my own work.

 

[Nostix]

I'm going to be honest, and say that I didn't do a fair amount of my homework in school.

I did the amount of work that I required to learn the material. If a certain assignment helped me understand the material, I did it. If an assignment was a waste of my time, I didn't. I never complained about it though. I always factored the reality of getting a zero into my decision.

I always enjoyed classes where a teacher would let us choose to have a 100% weight on exams, and a 0% weight on assignments. Plenty of my friends were the opposite, and loved assignments. They could pass a course they didn't understand by sheer force of effort. Take an assignment home and spend six hours on a thirty minute question, pass the class.

I guess all I learned in school is that the entire system is a crap-shoot. I don't even think anyone really has any idea what we're actually trying to achieve any more.

Maybe I'm just immature and entitled, who knows.

 

[gcclarke]

Personally, I rarely did nightly or weekly homework assignments in high school. Naturally, the big essays and reports all got done. But I wouldn't be bothered with busy-work.

But, I sure as hell did so knowing that I would get a zero on that work as a result. As that type of work was typically only worth about 5%, it didn't have all that much impact on my ability to still get rather good marks.

 

[PMedMoe]

'You're not special,' high school teacher tells graduating students

Forget carpe diem. This high school commencement address was more like carpe downer.

Or so it seemed, at first.

"None of you is special. You are not special. You are not exceptional," English teacher David McCullough Jr. told graduating students as he began his commencement address at Wellesley High School in Wellesley, Mass.

Instead, McCullough continued, "You've been pampered, cosseted, doted upon, helmeted, bubble-wrapped. ... You've been nudged, cajoled, wheedled and implored.

"Absolutely, smiles ignite when you walk into a room, and hundreds gasp with delight at your every tweet. Why, maybe you've even had your picture in the [local paper]! And now you've conquered high school....

"But do not get the idea you're anything special. Because you're not."

Those are bold statements to make, when one is speaking to 300 or so students and the parents that raised them.

A video of the address, delivered June 1, shows a small group of what appear to be students and faculty by turns laughing or looking quizzical in reaction to McCullough's words. Chuckles and applause can be heard from the audience.

But the crowd went silent as McCullough continued:

"If everyone is special, then no one is. If everyone gets a trophy, trophies become meaningless.

More (and video) at link

Thumbs up to this guy.  :nod:

 

[Journeyman]

'You're not special,' high school teacher tells graduating students

I assume he's already been fired and the school is being sued.  :

 

[medicineman]

I assume he's already been fired and the school is being sued.  :

He probably already gave half of them zeroes for grades and was on his way out the door anyway...this way he can finish batting 1.000.

MM

 

[ttlbmg]

I found this article this morning; there is another teacher at Ross Shep facing discipline over giving out zeroes.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/06/12/edmonton-no-zero-second-teacher-facing-discipline.html

I also found this article rather interesting. It is about a student that is gathering support for Lyndon Dorval, the first teacher suspended over the no zero policy.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/06/11/edmonton-student-petition-dorval-no-zero.html

 

[m2austin]

When I was marking papers at university I noticed that a large number of first year students lacked the understanding of how to create a proper argumentative essay. To remedy this, I gave them a few lessons at the beginning of tutorials on essay structure and noticed an improvement on the second essays submitted.

A few weeks after marking the first papers, I ran into my old high-school teacher walking his dog. I explained to him my findings and he explained the difficulties of failing students in courses and blamed the system for wanting to have such a high completion rate.

University education, despite what some may think, is a privilege and not a right. I made this point very clear before students started writing their papers and I explained that we have no obligation to pass students who do not meet sufficient grading criteria.

As for using Wikipedia - I encouraged them to read the articles pertaining to their papers but that they would need to chase the sources of the Wikipedia page and do further research to anticipate counter-arguments. Out of 50 students, I only had two who cited Wikipedia directly. In the second term of university, there were none.

I'm curious if there is a longitudinal survey of professor perception of maturity (like the one originally cited in this thread) but for 1st, 2nd, ... 4th year students. I would argue that while students may come to university immature and possibly unable to structure an essay, they very quickly learn or are forced to leave after academic probation. If there were a study like this, I'm sure you would find professors speaking well of their 4th year students as the program allowed for the progression of diligent and responsible individuals.

 

[George Wallace]

M2A


As a Moderator on this site, I often have to visit posts that some others may not pay attention to due to their various interests.  I have formed an unscientific survey of my own in this manner and have witnessed quite often the lack of proper English communication skills, perhaps more the lack of respect of the English language skills, of many posters professing to be university graduates, or soon to be graduates.  Even when we stress, over and over, the proper use of spelling, capitalization, sentence structure, etc. some of these personalities still flaunt the rules.  Their inability to comprehend that we are trying to help them become successful in their endeavours to create a successful career in the CF where highly precise communication skill are required and lack of such skills could have life and death consequences escapes them.  In the end, I have witnessed and come to the conclusion that some of our institutions of higher learning are not worth the ratings that McLeans magazine may give them annually.  I have seen many posts from supposed university graduates that indicate that they are functionally illiterate.  One well known institution in the area of College and Spadina comes to mind.

This is not new.  Surveys of university graduates in the 1970's were indicating similar statistics.  The numbers of functionally illiterate graduates have remained constant. 

 

[m2austin]

Mr Wallace,

I may also add that I've had the privilege of reading a few first edition manuscripts of books authored by professors and can attest to numerous grammatical and spelling errors. The cleaning up of this may be done by the editor and publishing team, or by the research assistant if tasked with the job.

I think it may be difficult to accurately quantify the degeneration of writing skills over time at the university level as there is no standardized test to my knowledge that would produce any identifiable data.

I don't think Macleans is a good source for university ranking and neither did anyone at my university until they started being listed as #1 in most undergraduate categories. <a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2007/04/02/samarasekera">Some professors</a> have taken a stand against its ranking methodology with a number of universities refusing to participate.

 

[daftandbarmy]

M2A


As a Moderator on this site, I often have to visit posts that some others may not pay attention to due to their various interests.  I have formed an unscientific survey of my own in this manner and have witnessed quite often the lack of proper English communication skills, perhaps more the lack of respect of the English language skills, of many posters professing to be university graduates, or soon to be graduates.  Even when we stress, over and over, the proper use of spelling, capitalization, sentence structure, etc. some of these personalities still flaunt the rules.  Their inability to comprehend that we are trying to help them become successful in their endeavours to create a successful career in the CF where highly precise communication skill are required and lack of such skills could have life and death consequences escapes them.  In the end, I have witnessed and come to the conclusion that some of our institutions of higher learning are not worth the ratings that McLeans magazine may give them annually.  I have seen many posts from supposed university graduates that indicate that they are functionally illiterate.  One well known institution in the area of College and Spadina comes to mind.

This is not new.  Surveys of university graduates in the 1970's were indicating similar statistics.  The numbers of functionally illiterate graduates have remained constant.

Please don't mess with the status quo. They need to hire consultants like me to help them!

 

[ttlbmg]

After reading this, I couldn't help but see the relevance to this thread.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/06/13/edmonton-provincial-achievement-tests.html

 

[KanD]

Somewhat related. Worth a read.

What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success
Source: The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/)

 

[CougarKing]

Related:  Kind of ironic that some of this generation eventually end up on the other side of the drive-thru window if their degree in ____ can't get them the job they expected, and they need to pay back those student loans.

Business Insider

Millennials' hatred of 'dealing with people' is a major threat to fast-food workers

    Hayley Peterson Aug 29, 2016, 11:41 PM ET

Many millennials hate interacting with people, according to a new survey.

Nearly a third of people 18 to 24 prefer ordering from the drive-thru at restaurants because "they don't feel like dealing with people," according to a study by Ohio-based Frisch's Restaurants, which owns and franchises 120 Big Boy Restaurants.

That's bad news for fast-food employees.

It gives restaurant chains an added incentive to invest in automation technology, such as digital tablets that allow customers to buy food without human interaction.

Many restaurant chains, such as McDonald's and Panera Bread, are already heavily invested in automation. Both have rolled out digital tablets at restaurants nationwide.

The technology has been praised for helping to improve customer-service speed and accuracy. But it also threatens to eventually replace human workers - especially as labor costs rise, according to analysts and labor activists.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[Michael OLeary]

So, the generation among which are some of the most vocal that claim there are no jobs for them, are literally the generation that is leading the charge on undermining the job opportunities they could pursue. It's not just the fast food industry, it's the same commitment to online banking and ATM vice talking to a teller, or using a self-checkout at the grocery store or wherever else they are installed, and online shopping for anything and everything. Each decision to not engage with an employee anywhere is a message to that industry that they don't need as many employees.

 

[Eaglelord17]

So, the generation among which are some of the most vocal that claim there are no jobs for them, are literally the generation that is leading the charge on undermining the job opportunities they could pursue. It's not just the fast food industry, it's the same commitment to online banking and ATM vice talking to a teller, or using a self-checkout at the grocery store or wherever else they are installed, and online shopping for anything and everything. Each decision to not engage with an employee anywhere is a message to that industry that they don't need as many employees.

To be fair those aren't the jobs anyone wants. No one wants to make a career out of fast food or any minimum wage job for that matter. If your working for 12$ a hour, your making roughly 24k a year. That is a pretty crappy standard of living by any means. The jobs people want available are the ones that were exported with the free trade agreements or lost due to advances in technology. The $20+ a hour jobs that required highschool or less which decrease in number daily.

Look at the erosion of the middle class to see some of the problems being faced by the average Canadian, which the younger generations are particularly affected by (as since there is less higher paying jobs available, it is significantly more of a competition to get one, driving us to get higher and higher levels of education and training to try and beat out everyone else). A number which is very telling is that in the last decade the number of low wage jobs has increased from 22% to 33% of the jobs available in Ontario. If you personally are not willing to settle for a minimum wage job why should anyone else?

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/chrystia-freeland-the-erosion-of-middle-class-jobs-and-incomes-in-canada-is-finally-being-exposed

 

[Michael OLeary]

To be fair those aren't the jobs anyone wants. No one wants to make a career out of fast food or any minimum wage job for that matter. If your working for 12$ a hour, your making roughly 24k a year. That is a pretty crappy standard of living by any means.

But those were the jobs that previous generations used to offset the costs of education, where they learned time management, new levels of personal responsibility, and how to perform in a workplace hierarchy. They were never career building opportunities, but they were development opportunities that helped people build skill-sets and resumes before they moved on to the careers they sought.