Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled

[cupper]

To be fair, it's not a phenomenon limited to Millennials. I suspect that if they looked at other cohorts they would find similar results. Gen X tends to choose drive thru over eating in a fast food restaurant, usually because of time constraints. Same for the ATM's and online banking. And as for the self checkout two words WAL MART.

I suspect it's more about time and schedules and less about not wanting interaction.

When was the last time you actually went inside a fast food joint and sat down to eat. Usually I go in because the line in the drive thru is backed up, and no one at the counter. When was the last time you went in to a bank to deposit or withdraw money. For me it's only when I need to do something I can't do online or at the ATM. Self checkouts are a mixed bag, and more than likely because to only two manned checkouts are backed up and I only have a few items. I still do the manned line if I have a full cart.

Oddly enough Walmart pulled the self checkouts out of the local store here because the system was not great, and was constantly screwing up. The one on the other side of the city had them installed several years later and work much better. But when was the last time you've been in a Walmart and there have been more than 3 or 4 manned checkouts open?

 

[daftandbarmy]

It's like a weird discussion I had recently with some 'fair wage' types who were concerned about raw logs being exported to China.

I asked them 'do you really want your kids to leave school at Grade 10 to go work in a sawmill?'

Most of them being entitled academics they, of course, did not.

 

[Eaglelord17]

But those were the jobs that previous generations used to offset the costs of education, where they learned time management, new levels of personal responsibility, and how to perform in a workplace hierarchy. They were never career building opportunities, but they were development opportunities that helped people build skill-sets and resumes before they moved on to the careers they sought.

True enough that is how it worked in the past, that being said, those jobs are starting to become the only option available for a fair bit of people.

 

[c_canuk]

It's like a weird discussion I had recently with some 'fair wage' types who were concerned about raw logs being exported to China.

I asked them 'do you really want your kids to leave school at Grade 10 to go work in a sawmill?'

Most of them being entitled academics they, of course, did not.

There is some point to that, but the counter point is that they buy our logs at a 10% markup, turn them to finished goods and charge 1000% markup when they sell the products back to us.

The question is, could we make them here ourselves for similar pricing and have more good paying jobs here.

Sure on paper working at a saw mill or furniture factory doesn't seem as glamorous as being a VP, but 95% of university grads are just going to spend their careers sitting in a wheelie chair in a cube farm somewhere anyway.

Having been relegated to the wheelie chair/cube farm I'm longing for something more field oriented where the job ends when I step over the threshold and leave with the satisfaction that I've gotten a good day's work done.

Bureaucracy never ends and victories/accomplishments within it are nebulous at best.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It's like a weird discussion I had recently with some 'fair wage' types who were concerned about raw logs being exported to China.

I asked them 'do you really want your kids to leave school at Grade 10 to go work in a sawmill?'

Most of them being entitled academics they, of course, did not.

The people in Prince Rupert would be happy to be able to add value to those raw logs, sadly due to both unions and management, those jobs aren't there. Now they are just happy some get employed marshaling the raw logs to the ship.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... The question is, could we make them here ourselves for similar pricing and have more good paying jobs here ...

The other part of that question is how many Canadians are willing to pay a premium for made-in-Canada product that would secure more well-paid jobs here?

 

[cupper]

One other point to consider is that China is manufacturing to a global market, where as production here in Canada would be much more limited.

Even if you removed the labor cost advantage that China has, you can't beat their advantage in volume of production and size of market.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Stuff - raw logs, freshly-caught seafood, agricultural produce, etc, etc - which is shipped overseas for processing and returned for sale here as "finished" goods generally undergoes its long journey because the net cost is cheaper than whatever would be required to do the finishing here.  That problem has to be solved at the source, not by whining about raw log exports with no quantitative grasp of what is going on.  Fix the cost of production here, and you may keep the jobs here.

Not every job has to be a "living wage" job.  I suppose that with half-a-dozen or so different min/low wage job experiences on my resume, I was better prepared for my first "real job" interview than someone with none.  (Having no debt was a separate advantage.)

 

[childs56]

Stuff - raw logs, freshly-caught seafood, agricultural produce, etc, etc - which is shipped overseas for processing and returned for sale here as "finished" goods generally undergoes its long journey because the net cost is cheaper than whatever would be required to do the finishing here.  That problem has to be solved at the source, not by whining about raw log exports with no quantitative grasp of what is going on.  Fix the cost of production here, and you may keep the jobs here.

Not every job has to be a "living wage" job.  I suppose that with half-a-dozen or so different min/low wage job experiences on my resume, I was better prepared for my first "real job" interview than someone with none.  (Having no debt was a separate advantage.)

I am not sure what your talking about in regards to raw log exports or even seafood.
Because we export raw logs over seas to Asia so the can mill them up to their specs and requirements for local use. A few mills on the coast have found a niche market in finished wood products to sell the Asia, but the problem is the consistency of the demand and amount of different cuts needed to make the overall sale possible on a large enough scale to make it feasible for Asia to buy milled wood from us.

I have yet to see milled lumber from Asia on the shelf at my local hardware store. I usually see West Fraser, or Weyerhaeuser printed on the label

As for sea food, most of the seafood we export to Asia is used for consumption over there. Where what they ship us is usually farmed over there and of a lower quality then the wild product here. Again based on volumes and cost. They pay more for our raw product of seafood from here then they do for their local seafood. But we pay more for their seafood ten they would. Based on scales of economy they win.

The cost of production here is not the biggest issue when it comes down to why we buy most consumer products from overseas.  It comes down to excessive requirements for 40%+ profits required by companies now a days to pay off high dividends and higher then normal bonuses an salarys of Upper management.

 

[Eaglelord17]

The question you need to ask yourself is did the average cost of goods go down when these free trade agreements came into place? If the answer is no then we can easily afford to make it here in Canada. Someone is making a lot of money off it, but the savings aren't being passed off to the consumer.

For example, did anyone notice the price of cars drop when they moved some of the plants to Mexico? Logically if the lies we were told on free trade were correct, the price should have gone down. Instead they have remained the same, why because someone is making a killing selling us these cars as the profit margin is so much larger now.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Stuff shipped overseas for finishing and consumption there isn't the same issue as stuff shipped overseas for finishing and back here again for consumption.  But the same criterion applies: the net cost of finishing and getting it to market.  Commercial enterprises will tend to seek the lowest costs, no matter how odd the route from raw material to retail shelf might look.

Stuff not subject to tariffs or other artificial trade adjustments to its cost should not be expected to become cheaper - if there are no costs to be reduced, there is no reason to move production.  You'd first have to partition the list of goods into those affected by changes mandated by a trade agreement, and those unaffected.  Then you could examine to see whether any prices changed.

Nevertheless, the better way to approach the issue is not to ask whether prices in general or particular went down, but whether consumption went up.

 

[ueo]

Or maybe the Canadian labour market is so glutted with degrees in olde English lit and its like because many parental units have drunk the "must have a degree" cool aid to the detriment of those students who do not like nor can fathom the esoterics of higher education but excel at special stuff like carpentry, mechanics etc. Maybe if students were streamed in high school into tech or academic streams (as was the case in Ontario for many years) then those with arts degrees would have a shot at the academic world leaving all the other well paying jobs to us techies. Just a thought.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Clint nails it, of course:

“ everybody's getting tired of political correctness, kissing up. That's the kiss-ass generation we're in right now. We're really in a pussy generation. Everybody's walking on eggshells.

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/a46893/double-trouble-clint-and-scott-eastwood/

 

[kratz]

Reference: CBC.ca

With the school year firmly begun, it's no surprise to read these types of news reports:

When your 'A' becomes a 'C' — Ontario university downgrades marks from some high schools
Students from Grimsby Secondary School saw their marks downgraded by 27.1 per cent
Conrad Collaco · CBC News · Posted: Sep 18, 2018 12:54 PM ET | Last Updated: 4 hours ago

At the University of Waterloo's engineering program, sometimes an "A" on a high school transcript isn't really an "A."

The university downgrades marks from schools where students historically have performed poorly in the first year of their program. So, an "A" from the wrong high school might not be better than a "C" from the right one.

There are 74 high schools from across the province on Waterloo's list. Two Hamilton-area schools are near the bottom. Students from Grimsby Secondary School saw their marks downgraded by 27.1 per cent, the most in the province while students from Southern Ontario Collegiate, saw their marks drop by 25.9 per cent, third worst on the list.

Bill Tucker, an assistant professor of education at Western University and a former school superintendent, spoke with the CBC's Conrad Collaco about this practice and what teachers, parents and students need to do to make sure high schoolers are ready for university.

More  at Link

 

[YZT580]

What else did they expect when they cancelled grade 13.  All it produced was a younger group of first year students.  We took the final maturing year of school and made it into a daycare for 3 and 4 year olds.  Now we have 16 and 17 year old young people out on their own for the first time in many cases. 

 

[RocketRichard]

What else did they expect when they cancelled grade 13.  All it produced was a younger group of first year students.  We took the final maturing year of school and made it into a daycare for 3 and 4 year olds.  Now we have 16 and 17 year old young people out on their own for the first time in many cases.

Uh. Unfounded. Ontario was the only province with grade 13.


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[dimsum]

Uh. Unfounded. Ontario was the only province with grade 13.

Agreed.  The only benefit I remembered was that most people (not me b/c I was a late-year baby) could legally drink during Frosh week. 

 

[Journeyman]

What else did they expect when they cancelled grade 13.

Posting only as someone who: a) has never been good at math;  and b) joined the military without the 'benefits" of Ontario Gr 13 (or even close, actually)…..

For your post to be rational, Grimsby Secondary School graduates would have to see their marks jump by 27.1% between Gr. 12 and 13, while Southern Ontario Collegiate would routinely need a similar 25.9% jump.  I can't imagine that happening.

For lacking maturity, sure, the article mentions:

...in secondary school you had guidance counselors, school administrators or the classroom teacher would give you a call or talk to you in the hallway and tell you to buckle down and pull your socks up. At university or college if you decide to skip classes or not submit an assignment you don't have that support. You're on your own

But that's not what is being discussed;  the article pretty much says Waterloo is calling BS -- believing that some schools inflate students' marks. I'm sure other universities believe that too, just not saying it.

 

[YZT580]

In Sask. the starting age for K is 5 which translates to a graduating age of 17 to 18 from grade 12.  In Ont. it is 4 which gives us the 16 and 17 grouping.  It isn't the loss of grade 13 as much as it is the earlier starting age that screws things up.

 

[dapaterson]

Agreed.  The only benefit I remembered was that most people (not me b/c I was a late-year baby) could legally drink during Frosh week.

Unlike Quebec, where the legal drinking age is just a suggestion.