Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled

[George Wallace]

The idea wasn't necessarily that it was worth more, but more that it's easier to obtain now because it's more expected that a person will have one.

Now, I see it differently.  If a person had to work hard for something, and was better educated in the process, then I figure that what that person achieved is worth more than something that another person gained by a much easier route.  If the value of a Diploma or Degree is devalued, it would be like the Deutsche Mark in 1939 that wasn't worth what a Deutsche Mark from 1920 was. 

Dumbing down the Education System gives the end result of Degrees and Diplomas that are worth less than what lesser Degrees or Diplomas were worth at an earlier time.  In essence, a High School Diploma of 1959 may be of more worth than a BA in PoliSc in 2009.  The 1959 student may have been a lot brighter than the modern University Grad.

As society shifts to requiring higher degrees, the standards will shift in order to accommodate the increased demand on the institutions from people who might not be as prepared for the education, but who have to obtain it anyway because their current credentials are of less use in a modern[izing] world.

There have always been Institutions whose reputations of providing a "higher quality" education than others.  You can look at the Yale, MIT, Oxford, Harvard, Sorbonne, and other such universities of the past whose graduates held higher status than those of other universities.  At the same time there were universities who provided lesser calibre of graduates: University of California, Berkley for instance.  Yes they may have offered same named Degrees, but they did not hold the same value/weight/credibility.

 

[Greymatters]

Of note, this is not true of all industries aross Canada.  There are still many areas of work where experience and skills count for a lot more than education, i.e. manufacturing industries...

 

[Engineer79]

Just my 2 cents. When I started first year I had a hard time keeping up with my colleagues, mostly because they were top international students – these students learned first year material in grade 10 and some in grade 11. Their program is very rigorous, especially compared to Canadian high schools. Which got me thinking, what did we learn in high school here? Not much! We really need to be stepping it up a notch rather than stepping it down (as we did with OAC/grade 13). In some regards, I am glad they removed grade 13 because we wouldn’t have learned much more that we would have with a 4 year high school program.

With that being said, once second year started, those of us who went to a Canadian high school had a much easier time than international students (mind you, almost 30% of students dropped out by this point). Never the less, it showed me another aspect of the Canadian learning environment – the way we are taught to learn here in Canada ensures that we have the ability to grasp the foundation of any material with a firm understanding. International students, however, have a hard time doing just that.

 

[ruckmarch]

Doesn't stop 'some of them' shagging the students though eh? I guess when it comes to that area of anatomy 101, exceptions are made?

Honestly though.....I can see their point in a way, students nowadays don't know how good they have it compared to the pre-world wide web era, where you actually had to go to the library and work out maths using your head.

 

[mariomike]

Doesn't stop 'some of them' shagging the students though eh? I guess when it comes to that area of anatomy 101, exceptions are made?

I keep reading about them. I guess I went to the wrong school. 

 

[PMedMoe]

Here's an article that seems to tie right in with this topic.
Teens buying good grades from private summer schools

Among teenagers it's considered a no-brainer: scoring a coveted A grade these days can be as simple as handing over a wad of cash to a wisely-chosen private summer school.

As Ontario high school students face mounting pressure to pull in the high marks needed to get into an A-list university or college, it appears increasing numbers are cracking open their pocketbooks instead of their textbooks.

The trend - known as "buying a credit" - is ringing alarm bells for both public-system educators and officials at the Ministry of Education, who feel students engaging in the practice are unfairly winning scholarships and select spots in post-secondary schools and then heading off to study unprepared.

"There was only seven people in the class, the teachers focus on you, and basically, there was no way I could do bad," said Sean Donoahue, 17, who paid $2,000 for a 20-day course in Grade 12 English.

"That's what sold me, was that I couldn't get a bad mark in summer school. There was no way I'd get below an 80."

Ross, who attended a different Toronto-based private school, purchased a package of six credits at $1,200 a pop and boosted his average up to the low-90s. He was accepted to every university he applied to.

It's a grade-factory. That's exactly what it is, that's the only reason the school exists. There's nothing more to the school," said the 20-year-old, who asked that only his middle name be used to avoid having his diploma disputed.

"If you just sort of showed up and did what you had to do, you were guaranteed something of an 80 or an 85. If you put in any effort whatsoever, you'd get exceptionally high marks - in the 90s."

Other students informally polled outside several non-descript private schools along the Yonge Street subway line in Toronto's north end said the practice was common knowledge. Some laughed bitterly about their "idiot" friends who were "spoon-fed" by teachers at even pricier schools.

More on link

Truly sad.  :

 

[Neill McKay]

I can buy that a summer school with very small classes would tend to result in higher marks, simply because the teacher/student ratio is so much higher.  But this quote really cracked me up:

"There was only seven people in the class, the teachers focus on you, and basically, there was no way I could do bad," said Sean Donoahue, 17, who paid $2,000 for a 20-day course in Grade 12 English.

$2000 wasted, based on the quality of this lad's grammar.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So what's the problem? Someone is having trouble. They pay for what amounts to a private tutor. They increase their education, on their own dime and time. As long as the marks can be substantiated, who cares? Good on them for wanting to better themselves.

No where in the article does it say they just paid for the mark. They said things like showing up and doing what you had to (studying? homework? :) resulted in a good mark. More effort (more studying? more homework? :) amounted to a higher mark.

Perhaps, the real problem is, the Min of Ed is upset because these types of facilities are shining the light on the useless 'nobody fails, noboby's an idiot' system they are perpetuating.

 

[PMedMoe]

No, it doesn't explicitly say they are paying for marks, but improving marks by large percentages seems to be the norm.

"We have students who will have a history in math of getting 20 per cent lower than what they end up achieving in a math course in one of these schools," said Joan Timmings, who just ended her term as president of the Peel District School Board's Guidance Heads Association. "They'll be getting something like 60s in math or English, and they'll end up getting 80s or 90s in that (other) school."

In one case, a student whose grades ranged between 35 and 70 achieved 90 and 92 at the private school.

Two other students, one who scored 50 in physics and another who scored 22 in a different math course, took those same classes for a fee and each earned a 90.

"It's not summer school. I've been to summer school. That's the point," said Eddie Mircea, 16, heading into math class.

He said the teachers hand him pre-made formula sheets for tests, never check homework and don't give students assignments each week as they would in the other system.

"You go to it pretty much because it's easier than school. It's much easier than school - that's the point."

Maybe they are just learning more with a lower student-to-teacher ratio, but going from a 22 to a 90?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

No, it doesn't explicitly say they are paying for marks, but improving marks by large percentages seems to be the norm.

Maybe they are just learning more with a lower student-to-teacher ratio, but going from a 22 to a 90?

And maybe the person had a problem, but the 'one on one' worked. It happens all the time, and a lot more than the current education system wants to admit. They'd actually have to work and apply themselves rather than get the kids doped with Ridalin.

I see this as nothing more than some (lazy?) educators trying to protect the lousy job they do. That, and a lazy press trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, when no real news exists, and making it instead of reporting it.

just my  :2c: and personal opinion. It's just conjecture.

 

[PMedMoe]

just my  :2c: and personal opinion. It's just conjecture.

I respect that.  I just wonder if these same students would have made such good marks in actual summer school.  If they need "one on one", I hope the parents are willing to pay for private tutors all through university,too.

 

[dustinm]

I respect that.  I just wonder if these same students would have made such good marks in actual summer school.  If they need "one on one", I hope the parents are willing to pay for private tutors all through university,too.

Once you've established the knowledge though, do you really need the one-on-one tutoring? If they genuinely gained the mastery of the knowledge I don't care how much it cost them, though I see what you're saying.

I got a 45% in one day-school class, took a similar (though considered not as challenging) summer school class of the same grade level and subject and managed an 80%, simply because the methods of the instructor were different.

The Teacher:Student ratio was like the kind you'd find in a day-school but the teacher was simply better suited to my learning style. Perhaps some of the improvement in these students is a combination of more time spent, a change-of-instructor, and the knowledge that if they fail they've just cost their parents $2,000?

 

[Neill McKay]

No, it doesn't explicitly say they are paying for marks, but improving marks by large percentages seems to be the norm.

Maybe they are just learning more with a lower student-to-teacher ratio, but going from a 22 to a 90?

A course is usually a lot easier the second time around, though!

I would expect a student to improve his or her mark in this situation for a few reasons:

- smaller classes, which are almost universally better learning environments;
- the kick in the backside that came from failing the course in the first place, as a motivator;
- the fact that it's costing someone money this time -- the student's or the parent's ("I'm paying a thousand dollars for this, so you'd damn well better pull your socks up this time young man!"); and
- getting the same material again, with a different teacher who has a slightly different perspective, can make a huge difference.

 

[Spanky]

A course is usually a lot easier the second time around, though!

I would expect a student to improve his or her mark in this situation for a few reasons:

- smaller classes, which are almost universally better learning environments;
- the kick in the backside that came from failing the course in the first place, as a motivator;
- the fact that it's costing someone money this time -- the student's or the parent's ("I'm paying a thousand dollars for this, so you'd damn well better pull your socks up this time young man!"); and
- getting the same material again, with a different teacher who has a slightly different perspective, can make a huge difference.

All of these reasons are valid.  In combination, it's not inconceivable that marks can climb that high.  That being said, I've taught a number of students at the elementary level that came to us from a couple of local private schools.  We could not believe how inflated the marks were.  Kids were coming from there with straight "A"s and getting "C"s and low "B"s from us.  I guess they had to keep the customer happy. :

It would be interesting to see how these summer school students would fare on a standard "exit" exam should one be available.

 

[ex-Sup]

I see this as nothing more than some (lazy?) educators trying to protect the lousy job they do.
It's just conjecture.

Hmmmm, should I bother responding to that? We'll just leave it at conjecture.

Here's the crux of the issue as my teacher's eye sees it. The competition for marks and certain programs these days is quite fierce. In some cases, especially with marks and their relationship to scholarships, we're talking about a lot of cash (thousands of dollars). The local university here (Lakehead) is giving free rides for 95+ averages. Not all kids taking summer school are doing it because they failed; some do it to boost their marks. The problem is that we have a few that can afford the big price tag to be in a class of 7 where they get more one on one time getting an advantage over those who cannot.

In combination, it's not inconceivable that marks can climb that high. 

When I read the article I would agree with Spanky here, but as I enter my 12th year in the business, experience tells me that it is very rare. Kids who are generally a B or C student do not magically jump 20 or 30 percent. Factors such as the teacher, the environment, etc can affect a student’s mark, but not to that extreme. In the end I would suspect that many of these “honour” students will get weeded out in university (unfortunately after they’ve received scholarships and taken up another admission spot). Stats tell us that approximately 25% of all high school students go to university; I would like to see some stats on how many of those complete their programs. I remember a number of people dropping out.

 

[Neill McKay]

It would be interesting to see how these summer school students would fare on a standard "exit" exam should one be available.

Definitely.  I don't think we can ignore the effect that a lack of accountability combined with an incentive to be able to claim amazing turnaround of past students could have on the practices of a private school.  One single check like that would clear up the uncertainty pretty quickly.

 

[SupersonicMax]

There are Standard Exams in Quebec. 

 

[gcclarke]

What was the cause of the original bad grade? That's the real question that needs to be answered if we're to determine whether such a spike in grades is reasonable or not. If the answer is that the material was simply too difficult for the student, then yes, there is likely some malfeasance going on. But frankly, I think that for the vast majority of these cases, the reason the student did poorly in the first place was simply because during the year they were lazy and didn't study.

Then, once their parents find out how poorly they did, and send them off to a 1 on 1 Math Boot Camp, instilling the fear of the wrath of god in the kid unless they do well, the student will then avail themselves of the opportunity to study, full time. It's not like they have much choice in the matter.

Personally, I have also pulled such "miraculous" recoveries, albeit during University vice high school. In my 2nd year, I failed my Thermodynamics course. I failed because my attendance was spotty, I didn't do much of the homework, and did not study much. The 2nd time around, I did study, and did all of the assigned problems with a study partner, and actually went to all of my classes. I then managed to get an A. And this was without any special intervention such as a full time 1 on 1 tutor.

It's perfectly reasonable to expect that a student who just didn't put in the effort the first time around is perfectly capable of performing quite well when they are forced to put in the effort.

 

[dustinm]

It's perfectly reasonable to expect that a student who just didn't put in the effort the first time around is perfectly capable of performing quite well when they are forced to put in the effort.

While slightly off-topic, I had a teacher in 6th Grade who had a nasty way of turning everything into a negative. Case in point, after a particularly bad test on some subject where something like 60% of the class had failed (luckily I was in the minority), we were given the weekend to study the material before a retest.

Writing a different test on the same material, nobody scored less than a 70%. And this was taken as a bad thing, since it meant those who failed the first time around didn't study, so we were subjected to aa second chewing out about why we all passed :

 

[gcclarke]

While slightly off-topic, I had a teacher in 6th Grade who had a nasty way of turning everything into a negative. Case in point, after a particularly bad test on some subject where something like 60% of the class had failed (luckily I was in the minority), we were given the weekend to study the material before a retest.

Writing a different test on the same material, nobody scored less than a 70%. And this was taken as a bad thing, since it meant those who failed the first time around didn't study, so we were subjected to aa second chewing out about why we all passed :

Whenever something like that happens, it is the fault of the teacher. Individual failures are up to the individual. Group failures, however, only have one common link. Either the test was much too difficult, or the teaching was inadequate, or some combination thereof.

I had a drafting course where the final exam was worth quite a bit. I remember walking out of the exam thinking that, in the unlikely event that I received full marks on every question which I was able to attempt, I still would not have been able to finish off the course with anything more than a 40%. Of course, the same thing happened to everyone else in the course, and after they curved the marks to high hell, I ended up with a B or a B-.

Needless to say, I'm glad that I've never had a position where I needed to do any drafting.