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President George W Bush's place in history

I seem to remember that our war stocks of 105mm Howizters were sold to SV, along with a bunch of spare parts. The differance between our C1 Howizters and the US ones was the muzzle swell and I remember seeing SV howitzers with the muzzle swell on the news.
 
Im anti-Bush, not anti-US. Im right wing and generally pro-American. I do read some leftist stuff but thats because I try and read everything. People who only watch CNN are just as brainwashed as those who only watch Aljazeera.

If the US did not get involved in Iraq and intervene, the world would be a more dangerous place than it is now.

I respectfully disagree

The GWOT is much more deeper than Iraq, and I don't think thats been a waste.

Agreed, I support the A-Stan mission and a lot of the stuff about the global war on terror. There is a lot about how we conduct it that I disagree with, but thats not really the topic at hand.

This is a war of cultures, that being a war fighting islamc extremist finaticals who love death as much as we love life.

Its also a war of hearts and minds, and I feel that George Bush's policys and the result of said policys have made it hard to win hearts and minds in the arab world.

I have earned my opinion from being there in the thick of it.

I agree, and I have a lot of respect for you for what you have done, and I respect your opinion.

A waste of lives?? How disrespectful can you get!

If you read my earlier post you will see I said a waste of money. So much money in Iraq has gone missing or been used for the wrong stuff. I am not at all trying to be disrespectful, I have a huge amount of respect for most of the soldiers, and none more so than those who gave their lives.

Would you rather have us sit back and do nothing?

No, but I think war should be a last resort and in the case of Iraq I dont feel it was, I think GWB misjudged a lot of things. I agree that people always seem to want to intervene whereever there is a problem (Congo, Burma, Sudan, Somalia, Rwanda) and then when our boys start dying they wanna pull everyone out. Im not sure what can be done about this.

Opinions are one thing, but if you want to insult true warriors perhaps its time to pack it in here and go elsewhere

How have I insulted anyone besides Bush and neo cons?

especially in the Pacific Theatre.

I know, without them my great uncle would have died in a Japanese POW camp.

The world would a different place without our American neighbours, and I mean different as much more dangerous to us all.

I agree. I dont think it makes me anti-American to dislike GWB and specific parts of us policy.

Feel lucky you can have say what you wish

I am so lucky to live in Canada, I am thankful every day.

As to his domestic agenda

America a net importer of oil and has a declining trend in agricultural trade balance. (these commodities will only get higher).
Public and private debt are out of control. Savings is at an all time low.
20% of all loans issued this year were subprime. The housing bubble has poped and is still going down.
There is the problem of bank liquidity or inflation? Its a really tough call and either way its going to hurt.
as well, how can you justify a 145 billion dollar tax cut/spending package in the middle of a 240 billion dollar deficit?

I know a lot of this isnt directly Bush's fault, but hes not doing anything about it, since he became president he hasnt done anything to address the economic disaster that the US is heading for.
 
Flip said:
Geo,

That's today's politically correct snapshot.

Give it a decade or a generation - I think long term history will
be more charitable than the current tide.

As a Canadian, I like George and I know most Canadians
misunderestimate him.  ;)

Yes that's it! We misunderstand him! Poor fellow, dumb Canadians!
 
Oberst
American presidents are often reviled in their own time.
Especially by non-Americans.

Canadians by and large do not pay enough attention to support
their opinions with much more than feelings or impressions.
We very seldom calculate alternatives objectively.
A lot of Canadians think that John Kerry would have been good
for Canada for example.

The word "misunderestimate" is a GWB quote.
I'll take the fact that you didn't get the joke as proof that YOU
have not been paying enough attention.

 
Flip said:
Oberst
American presidents are often reviled in their own time.
Especially by non-Americans.

Canadians by and large do not pay enough attention to support
their opinions with much more than feelings or impressions.
We very seldom calculate alternatives objectively.
A lot of Canadians think that John Kerry would have been good
for Canada for example.

The word "misunderestimate" is a GWB quote.
I'll take the fact that you didn't get the joke as proof that YOU
have not been paying enough attention.

Whoa, take it down a notch! I got your 'joke' and I wasn't trying to knock what you said so don't be so defensive.
 
I find it interesting that people who are opposed to GWB invasion of Iraq, generally have no other well-thought out solution to problem that existed at the time and have never given it any thought at all. If people come back with a well thought out alternative, even which disagree with, at least I respect their opinion. Bashing Bush is cool for most people and the popular way to go. Disagree with them and see just how open minded people really are..
 
That is a very interesting article. I've never heard that side of the argument but everywhere you go you hear the 'bush is (insert vulgar name calling)' Thanks for bringing that to light!
 
I always like pointing out this "Inconvenient Truth" to the Bushhaters


http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp
 
OberstSteiner said:
Whoa, take it down a notch! I got your 'joke' and I wasn't trying to knock what you said so don't be so defensive.

So OS, are you critical of the Republicans?

Do you think we would be better to have Kerry/Gore or the Dems in the Whitehouse in post 9-11?

Bush inherited their (Dems) mess.
 
An analysis on why George W Bush inspired such passions, by the one and only Mark Steyn:

http://www.steynonline.com/content/blogcategory/13/99/

NICE IS EASY   
Tuesday, 29 January 2008

HAPPY WARRIOR
from National Review

I used to support the “candidate of change”, but then I changed to the candidate of “change you can believe in”, and then I changed back to the “candidate of change” after the candidate changed to being an “agent of change”, which sounds very top-secret and groovy. There used to be a British rock band called Status Quo (one would like to think there still is), and, endearingly enough, all their records sounded exactly the same. But no-one’s using them for a campaign theme this season. Instead, it’s one beguiling chorus after another of “Changers In The Night”. As the bumper stickers say, “I’m Pro-Change And I Vote”. Even my colleague John O’Sullivan penned a column for the Telegraph in London headlined “Barack And Huckabee Ride On Wish For Change”.

I’m not sure I’d want to ride a wish for change if I needed to get anywhere in a hurry on it. Among the 300 million or so Americans, the ones consumed by a burning desire for meaningful change are the teensiest sliver of a tiny minority. Oh, sure, lots of people would like a quick fix in health care, if there were such a thing, but on most issues large numbers of folks who claim to be pro-change are content with either a meaningless gesture (on the environment) or utter inactivity (on social security and everything else). Non-politically-active Americans – which is to say most Americans – are broadly content with their country. Even an issue such as illegal immigration, on which ostensibly a huge bipartisan majority of Americans would like real action, doesn’t get much traction once the candidates are up there talking about it.

Why? Well, when voters say they want “change”, what they really mean is they want nice. If you’re not into politics 24/7, it is to the casual observer one of the most unpleasant arenas of American life. Take any other competitive environment and they’re using entirely different standards of “meanness” – Simon on “American Idol”, for example, would be a pussycat if you signed him up at Daily Kos. So come presidential nominating season a big swathe of the populace expresses a kind of aesthetic distaste for the entire business by plumping for the freshest face on the national scene – ie, Obama or Huckabee. Both of them seem nice mainly because they’re new. A primary or three later, and they don’t seem so new, and don’t seem so nice. Politics will do that.

Christopher Hitchens likes to say politics is showbusiness for ugly people, but a lot of ‘em didn’t seem that ugly until 30 years of Sunday morning Senatorial talkshow appearances took their toll. Even the fascist mass murderer Bushitler ran eight years ago as an alternative to the stern-faced Gingrich Republicans who’d sat in weekly judgment over the Clinton era. The first President Bush famously offered himself as a “kinder, gentler” alternative to the President he’d just spent eight years with, a pitch so shameless that it worked only because it expressed something very profound – that in settled democracies most people just want something kindler, gentler, nicer, quieter, easier listening. That will be especially true after seven years on Orange Alert.

Which brings us back to why Mister Uniter-Not-A-Divider is ending his term as the most divisive president since the last divisive president. Because to govern is to choose. And to govern in tough times is to make tough choices. And thus to choose is to divide. An electorate that wanted real change – on immigration, education, entitlements – would be voting for one almighty four-year slugfest. So instead we wind up with a bit of bipartisan tinkering and drift. That’s the lesson of 9/11. It may be “the day the world changed”, but in the great federal bureaucracy it was the day nothing changed, except a few agency acronyms: Look at the CIA or the State Department or whatever the INS is called this week. To make even the smallest (here’s that word again) change – such as, say, requiring passports for visits to Mexico and Canada – takes the best part of a decade.

Do you remember the last time America was “united”? The fall of 2001. Ninety per cent approval for Bush. Massive majorities in favor of toppling the Taliban. Didn’t last, couldn’t last. Because six months go by, and suddenly Afghanistan doesn’t seem so easy, and 40 per cent bail on the president and decide it’s his fault. Unity on anything serious will, almost by definition, be shallow and ephemeral. President Bush learned that the hard way, when history reasserted itself and left its bloody calling card.

What we need is not bogus invocations of unity, which is largely a platitudinous or poll-driven cover for inertia. The President of the United States has to act in a world in which everyone from the bureaucracy to Congress to the EU to the UN is urging lethargy. In the days after 9/11, you’ll recall that Nato invoked its famous Article stating that an attack on one member was an attack on all, but even as the declaration was rolling off the photocopier various European foreign ministers were saying not to worry, it doesn’t mean anything. That’s “unity” – unity in the cause of torpor. George W Bush determined that for once somebody had to mean something, and he acted.

The next president will face that choice, too. By “change”, most voters want a restoration of the quiet life. Sorry, that’s not an option, no matter what nice young freshman Senators promise.

from National Review, January 14th 2008

 
Well its mark steyn
I disagree with his points, but why should I counter it with words or logic? its not like that how things get done in our country!

Seeing as this is canada, I think I will try and have his speech considered to cause hate and contrempt towards those who dislike Bush!

8)
 
Do you remember the last time America was “united”? The fall of 2001. Ninety per cent approval for Bush. Massive majorities in favor of toppling the Taliban. Didn’t last, couldn’t last. Because six months go by, and suddenly Afghanistan doesn’t seem so easy, and 40 per cent bail on the president and decide it’s his fault. Unity on anything serious will, almost by definition, be shallow and ephemeral. President Bush learned that the hard way, when history reasserted itself and left its bloody calling card.

What we need is not bogus invocations of unity, which is largely a platitudinous or poll-driven cover for inertia. The President of the United States has to act in a world in which everyone from the bureaucracy to Congress to the EU to the UN is urging lethargy. In the days after 9/11, you’ll recall that Nato invoked its famous Article stating that an attack on one member was an attack on all, but even as the declaration was rolling off the photocopier various European foreign ministers were saying not to worry, it doesn’t mean anything. That’s “unity” – unity in the cause of torpor. George W Bush determined that for once somebody had to mean something, and he acted.

The next president will face that choice, too. By “change”, most voters want a restoration of the quiet life. Sorry, that’s not an option, no matter what nice young freshman Senators promise.

Say whatever you may about Bush, but it was he that took the fight on terror to the terrorists. If it were left up to the democrats, we would be seeing sequels like, WTC 2-3 and maybe 4 by now. He took the gloves of and said come on you cowards, you only get one free shot.

He may be a lot of things, but he was the only one that had the guts to stand up and fight and not allow these cowards a second chance. It's to bad the rest of the world doesn't see that. The MSM media paints him as a war monger, well they did the same thing to Roosevelt in WWII. According to them he was the devil incarnate and he must have lost his mind, but without his resolve, we'd all be flying a nazi flag today.

History may paint Bush badly, but he was the only one that did what needed to be done and he made the hard choice, not the easy one. I think a few decades from now people will agree, that if he had just sat on his hands, it would of been a totally different world, and a much more bloody place.
 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/70525.0.html

This will probably count for something....
 
I think you're being far too lenient.  Whether or not you believe that the invasion of Iraq was morally justified or not, the way in which GW Bush's case was presented and subsequently executed was extremely divisive to Americans and rooted in partisan politics at home that have crippled the US's ability to present a coherent response to what's happened in Iraq (cluster..).

The first and most important principle of war is Selection and Maintenance of the Aim.  The Iraq war was floated on a variety of premises which have all turned out to be flawed and were fundamentally deceptive -- manufactured intelligence, non-existent terrorist links, whatever, while at the same time denying the only sensible reasons to be there (oil and geopolitical influence).  The Republicans worked very hard to make it *their* war -- national consensus was not necessary and neither was national cooperation and mobilization.  The Iraq war's collary effect at home was to be to make the democrats irrelevant, while restricting the benefits -- defense contracts, reconstruction, etc. --  to the Republican party's ties in the military-industrial complex.  It could have happened, and it did work in that a lot of money has been redistributed in the right pockets, but the fact that the Bush administration put themselves out on a limb has left them with nobody to turn to for help when it all went FUBAR.

You can't blame Bush's administration for every problem the US is currently enduring, but the US entanglement in Iraq has removed the illusion of US superpower.  Bush's insistence on unilateralism and disdain for international cooperation has left the US isolated and diplomatically weak -- with the other two engines coughing up smoke (military and economic), the illusion of US hegemony has vanished, and we have a new international reality.  You can check out a very interesting article from the NYT here.

Waving Goodbye to Hegemony

I was living in the US during Sept 11th (next door to NORAD), and frankly I didn't find Bush's actions after 9/11 in any way courageous.  There's a reason Rudy Guiliani is seen as a hero, it's because the federal response to 9/11 resembled the federal response to Katrina -- nonexistent.  Part of your job as a leader is to be visible and reassure people you're taking care of business.  The Bush Administration vanished into thin air (or more precisely reinforced bunkers) for days, sporadic TV broadcasts notwithstanding.  Maybe this made sense in the context of the Cold War, Continuity of Ops and USSR government decapitation strategies, but I saw it as demonstration of their real priorities (confirmed by Bush and Cheney's service records).  I was shocked when Americans, instead of crucifying their government for putting their own survival above their people, decided to re-elect them.  Americans have very short memories, for which I fault for watching too much TV.

If Iraq turns out well, which I hope it does, credit should be given to the people who are making it happen, which is the US military.  It should not be given to Bush or the Democrats, who just spend their time trashing each other and oversimplifying everything.  As to Bush being likeable, he is (at least to some people).  But being one of the boys doesn't make him a good leader.  If you get into analyses that actually mean anything (think Stratfor) you'll find he's 1) mediocre, and 2) responsible for much, much less than the lower-wattage elements of the left continually try to pin on him.

Between genuises like Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh representing their respective political wings, I think the US has a better chance of stabilizing Iraq than electing anybody who's not useless.
 
More opinion:

http://www.rachelmarsden.com/columns/bushlegacy.htm

Hindsight Will Help Us See Through The Bush

By:  Rachel Marsden

WASHINGTON, DC -- George Bush is still right. While his critics assume the kiss-your-behind-goodbye position and reach for the barf bag with every bit of turbulence -- he remains focused on the ultimate objective of his political journey.

During a chat session at Washington, D.C.'s Heritage Foundation with White House press corps journalist Bill Sammon -- who has interviewed Bush more than any other reporter and has just parlayed that access into a new book, The Evangelical President -- he said that while Bush has done some things wrong, it doesn't happen every single day, as some of his media colleagues would have you believe.

Sammon, a registered Independent who brings the usually foreign concept of fairness to journalism, also suggests that events like the execution of Saddam Hussein and the capture of al-Qaida's Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- the man largely responsible for triggering sectarian violence in Iraq -- will eventually loom larger in retrospect than, for example, Dick Cheney shooting his pal during a hunting trip.

Greatness usually appears in the rear-view mirror. Winston Churchill was dismissed as a nut when he first warned the world about Hitler. We all know how that movie ended.

Ronald Reagan hit a 42% approval rating in 1983, as unemployment peaked prior to his visionary Reaganomics policy kicking in. When he died, you'd think the previously critical liberal media had spent a lifetime partying with the guy.

Poor GOP Senator Joe McCarthy was persecuted and vilified for audaciously suggesting the U.S. government was rife with communist spies at its highest level. Now that the VENONA Project has successfully decoded encrypted Soviet communications, we know his assessment was bang-on.

Even president Jimmy Carter -- who let American hostages rot in Iran for 444 days and was drop-kicked from office with a 39% approval rating that year -- went on to win a Nobel Prize for his, um, efforts.

But the media has spent so much time and effort trying to portray Bush as a dolt -- making fun of his bungling of the English language, even though any political strategist ought to recognize this as a play ripped from Sun Tzu's "The Art of War". Meanwhile, as Sammon points out, his Iraq War policy will even continue if Hillary Clinton, the overwhelmingly favoured Democratic nominee, should become president.

Bush's policies even preclude recent major political changes in Europe, despite an article in this week's New York Observer saying of European conservative victories: "...a moribund economy and a general sense of dissatisfaction with the status quo fuelled the victories of candidates whose pro-free market reform credentials were more important than [candidates'] pro-Americanism."

In countries like France, these changes in government centred largely on immigration and culture. And I suppose there's absolutely no blatantly obvious correlation between the types of folks Bush is chasing down in the war on terror and French President Sarkozy's pre-election statement that in France "we're not polygamist, we don't practice female circumcision, and we don't slaughter sheep in our apartment."

And there couldn't possibly be a connection between Bush's war on terrorism and conservative victories in Switzerland and Germany amid public opposition to the emergence of certain places of worship.

For Bush's critics to have to admit that his vision has even caught on in France would likely be too much to take.

George W. Bush is the Winston Churchill of our time. Don't see it? Keep an eye on that rear-view mirror.

PUBLISHED:  TORONTO SUN (October 29/07)

COPYRIGHT 2007 RACHEL MARSDEN
 
Thucydides,

George W. Bush is the Winston Churchill of our time. Don't see it? Keep an eye on that rear-view mirror.

A remarkable find! Especially considering the source.
I think this last remark might be going a little far, but still an amusing little piece!
 
Mashup
You do realize that the Feds can not respond until the State govern er requests assistance? This is why FEMA was late in responding as the Governor dropped the ball on requesting help right away. Only the US Coastguard can respond without a direct request.

 
As I said at the beginning of this thread, there is too much emotional baggage and too much invested into particular points of view to fairly assess George W Bush now.

Certainly his foreign policy draws the most attention, although there should be plenty to say about domestic policy under his Administration. Where you stand on issues is often determined by how they impact you, hence (for example) the widespread voter outrage over illegal immigration vs the rather (ahem) muted response by both the Administration, the Congress and the business elites.
Just the opposite seems to have happened with the attempt to reform Social Security, the voters who should have been outraged over the "Ponzi scheme" nature of US Social Security were mute while the various players who feed off vast sums of government money sluicing through the system fought against reform.

While the "progressives deplore US "unilateralism", they are notably silent on the failure of various multilateral initiatives (EU talks with Iran on Nuclear Enrichment, Six party talks on North Korea), while Neo-Cons are most vocal about these failures as the need to take unilateral action without referencing the rather extreme challenges of doing so.

Looking at other Presidents who held office in trying times (Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, and Ronald Reagan to name a few), they also were victims of rather vicious attacks by their political opponents at the time, but their reputations have altered with the passage of time and changing historiography.
 
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