Precedence of Tribal Badges (or “why I want to wear that badge) – split thread

[Remius]

Meh, I don't really care one way or the other.  The Navy have weird names for their ranks, think that armouries are ships and if they want weird looking outfits I'm not going to argue.    ;D

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The only "camouflage" pattern I would accept for a naval combat is one that would let me do the equivalent of this in my bunk:  :nod:

 

[Pusser]

The only "camouflage" pattern I would accept for a naval combat is one that would let me do the equivalent of this in my bunk:  :nod:

Wouldn't it be more appropriate then to have something to blend with the Wardroom carpet - complete with beer stains and cigarette burns?

 

[FSTO]

My dress of the day is NCD, however, I choose to wear S&P.  I don't get the points to support it, but meh....  besides, it's too hot here in the summer to want to wear NCD.

What do you mean? I replace my SS shirts (3) and white pants (2) in the spring and LS shirts (3) and black pants (2) in the fall every year and I had enough points left over to get the muskrat hat and snow boots. In fact I still have over 300 pts left.
I'm Tier 2 OPs.

 

[dapaterson]

And why are people working in climate controlled HQs in Canada wearing operational dress?  Just saying...

Heretic!  How dare you question why people wear the most expensive uniform for purposes it's not intended for instead of a uniform that looks more professional and is cheaper to boot?

(Perhaps because it doesn't need an iron or spit-shining?  Just throwing that out there...)

 

[FSTO]

Wouldn't it be more appropriate then to have something to blend with the Wardroom carpet - complete with beer stains and cigarette burns?

You are really dating yourself there Pusser!! 

 

[jollyjacktar]

What do you mean? I replace my SS shirts (3) and white pants (2) in the spring and LS shirts (3) and black pants (2) in the fall every year and I had enough points left over to get the muskrat hat and snow boots. In fact I still have over 300 pts left.
I'm Tier 2 OPs.

I don't get the full points that the S&P folks get, is what I mean.  I do find that on the whole, I am able to change out things as needed too.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Yes, the wording is what it is:

8. Control is exercised by local commanders who may standardize the dress of subordinates on any occasion, including the wear of accoutrements and alternative or optional items, subject to overall command direction. See also Chapter 2, Section 1, paragraph 44.

You got your overall command direction: A CANFORGEN that tells you don't do this. And it's an order that is issued by a lawful authority.

But, in the case of a Navy DEU purple trade, posted to a Cdn Army unit...would the command direction they fall under not be that of the Cdn Army, vice RCN?  A purple trade mbr is only "Navy" when they are posted to a RCN unit, no?

Let's also deal with your view that "operational dress are not necessarily DEU related": Let's see what CFP 265, Article 6 has to say:

6. In accordance with these instructions the Commanders of Commands are delegated authority to establish rules for the design and wear of their respective operational orders of dress. See Chapter 5, Annex D, paragraph 2.

Of course this makes sense.  However, see my above comment.

And finally, I'd like to deal with the constant rebuke brought in these forums that the RCN requires army personnel to wear NCD's onboard ships.

Let's start with the fact that, funny enough, nobody ever mentions that the same RCN does not require the RCAF personnel onboard ship to wear the NCDs. We do however require ALL RCAF (not just the pilots) personnel to wear the Flight suits instead. Why would that be? Simple: Take a blow torch to a CADPAT for a few second and you'll know - Similarly, rip a velcro badge quickly from a CADPAT in an environment with volatile fuels and see what happens. The NCD and Flight suits are at the proper fire/flash resistance level and have the non sparking velcro, the CADPAT,does not.

Makes complete sense.  But, I think the point I was attempting to make was 'how would the RCN view it if a Army DEU purple trade person challenged the requirement to wear NCD 'because they are Army'.  Wouldn't go over so well, I am guessing.  8)

But let's deal instead with the proper comparison here:

I would think that Esquimalt and Halifax are clearly bases under the control of the RCN. Yet, you will find that, even though operational clothing is the dress of the day, army DEU'd personnel working on the base, be it the dockyard, the main base or the various schools and lodger units wear their CADPAT and nobody requires them to wear the NCD.

And it is this equivalent situation that the CANFORGEN is aimed at: Not that when seaman deploy in the field (and that includes oversee deployments to the middle east) they have to wear CADPAT - that's fine - but that when they are just working around the base or in lodger units their local commanding officers would require them to switch to CADPAT. In other words, not a change required by operational reasons, but just a change to make the "army" base look more "army" in their mind. And that, as I have said before, is what is contrary to the very concept of the purple trades employment under the unified CF's.

A very good point that never crossed my mind.  I think you can call 'checkmate' on that one;  I can see the reasoning behind that.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

But, in the case of a Navy DEU purple trade, posted to a Cdn Army unit...would the command direction they fall under not be that of the Cdn Army, vice RCN? 

Yes it would.

And you may recall that, the first time I heard of this order, it was presented to us as originating from Commander RCN in a MARGEN. At that point I, myself, questioned the basis on which he/she could make such an order.

It was then pointed out that the order was actually from the VCDS and issued as a CANFORGEN. As command direction goes, I would like to think that the VCDS, acting through CANFORGEN's, is a superior command to all three environmental ones, which must be obeyed by all three. That the VCDS at the time happened to be from one environment instead of another is irrelevant here. The very same CANFORGEN could have been issued by a VCDS wearing the light blue, even though it appeared to address a problem that involved the Army and the RCN.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

copy

 

[Baz]

As command direction goes, I would like to think that the VCDS, acting through CANFORGEN's, is a superior command to all three environmental ones, which must be obeyed by all three.

Somebody explained to me (a full Col, WComd at the time), that the term Vice is very specific, and distinct from Deputy.  It is also more than a COS.  Paraphrasing it means he can act with the authority of the Commander for all intents except Commanding actual operations or as restricted by the Commander... or something similar to that.  So yes, a CANFORGEN from the VCDS is exactly as if it came from the CDS, as I understand it.

One of the purposes of a CANFORGEN is to issue an order or amendment to an order while waiting for the actual orders to be amended; routine orders and aircrew orders can do the same thing. 

However, am I the only one concerned that far too many things get issued as CANFORGENs, DAODs, etc, and the real order never get changed?  And, as a recent example I heard of, that leads to people thinking that they can in effect amend things like the QROs and NDA in the same way?

 

[CountDC]

However, am I the only one concerned that far too many things get issued as CANFORGENs, DAODs, etc, and the real order never get changed?  And, as a recent example I heard of, that leads to people thinking that they can in effect amend things like the QROs and NDA in the same way?

No - more and more people are concerned about the different gens issued without the actual amendment happening.  DAODs are not a concern as they are the replacements for CFAOs so are the new "amended" order.  I just don't like them as they tend not to provide the same amount of information as the CFAOs did and often leave things too vague or open to interpretation (yes worse than the CFAOs).  I was also told the intent is to fully replace the QR&Os eventually too.  In a recent conversation with a a couple other clerks we all agreed we liked it much better when the first you heard officially about a change was receiving the amendments to the QR&O or CFAO with an effective date in the future (although admittedly it wasn't uncommon to get them after the date). 

 

[Pusser]

You are really dating yourself there Pusser!! 

Sometimes, memories are all we have left. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

Wow. and I thought the Army were the only ones all messed up about these kinds of things. Thanks Navy for making us feel part of the team!

 

[Pusser]

Wow. and I thought the Army were the only ones all messed up about these kinds of things. Thanks Navy for making us feel part of the team!

Well actually...

Our wants and desires are really quite simple.  If we were allowed to have the navy things we want, then all would be good.  Unfortunately, we seem to always be saddled with army things and the army way...

 

[Furniture]

Well actually...

Our wants and desires are really quite simple.  If we were allowed to have the navy things we want, then all would be good.  Unfortunately, we seem to always be saddled with army things and the army way...

When Officers and NCOs eat last, live in the same conditions as their men, and believe leadership is more than administrivia (thanks ERC) the Navy will have things the Army way. Until then the Navy will continue with occasional changes in their clothing and combined kitchens on land...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

:goodpost:

The Navy will be equal when they give up rum, sodomy and the lash

 

[jollyjacktar]

:goodpost:

The Navy will be equal when they give up rum, sodomy and the lash

I do beg your pardon!!  They took away our rum  :'(

 

[Journeyman]

If we were allowed to have the navy things we want, then all would be good.  Unfortunately, we seem to always be saddled with army things and the army way...

Great.  Just when I was coming to terms with all the world's problems being because I'm a white, Anglo, male, I now have to add Army  to the list of things for 'the oppressed' to whine about. 
        :

 

[Baz]

Well actually...

Our wants and desires are really quite simple.  If we were allowed to have the navy things we want, then all would be good.  Unfortunately, we seem to always be saddled with army things and the army way...

The only thing the Navy is saddled with is 200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress...

Of course, it could be worse; it could be the RCAF.  Works on the personal level (ie everyone gets what they want), but unable to understand anything other than turning jet fuel into smoke and noise.