Police pulling guns on Reservists in BC

[medaid]

Ah... I never get the public.

They will never EVER EVER in a million years! Associate armed, disciplined, uniformed troops to be what they are. Troops.

:

 

[medicineman]

I always wanted to see a LEO pull over a MLVW with artillery gun behind it...  ;D

Not quite that, but funny to see the Customs Officers when we came back from gun camp in Ft Lewis one year.

On another note, we had a gun tractor go into a 6 wheel lockup that caused a 105 to flip and knock the clown that was tailgating him off the Pat Bay Highway one crappy morning (going to aforementioned gun camp).  The article in the Times-Communist, oops, Colonist quoted this dweeb as saying "I thought these people were here to protect us, not attack unarmed civilians...".  Unfortunately for him, the BSM was a Victoria city cop; fortunately for him, Shadow, his ill tempered 4 legged partner, wasn't there.  After that, the drunken Irish kinfolk of Mr Murphy stuck their large noses into what became a not so great ex.

MM

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If the unit has the "keys" for the city in question, they are allowed to march through the street with bayonets fixed and colours flying. I wish the Seaforths would do that on a sunny afternoon past the art gallery on Robson St, it would do the girls their good to see some real men...

 

[noneck]

I think this should be locked until the factual story (and not second and third hand accounts) can be obtained.

I was posted at this Det for 7 years and as long as it's not under investigation and merely miscommunication it's a non-event. Richmond Detachment had enjoyed a long and positive relationship with the Service Bn for many years, so much so that most of our large parades are held there.

More to follow
Noneck

 

[Michael OLeary]

If the unit has the "keys" for the city in question, they are allowed to march through the street with bayonets fixed and colours flying.

Having been ceremonially granted Freedom of the City doesn't negate requirements to follow regulations and expectations to inform local authorities; it's a ceremonial privilege, not a carte blanche to do as you wish within the city limits.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I think this should be locked until the factual story (and not second and third hand accounts) can be obtained.

Since the discussion has primarily been discussing the regulatory background and mentions of other similar instances and not a spiralling diatribe against the originally mentioned LEO, there should be no need to lock this one yet.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Bar of action
(5) No action lies by reason only of the execution of manoeuvres authorized under this section.

But, para (5) above, in my interpretation, says you can't claim to do such things simply because you are participating in training "manoeuvres".  And claiming you have the Minister's authority simply because you want to conduct such training may be over-reaching the local chain of command's authority.  If, however, you have demonstrated a clear training requirement to do so, and have clearance from the chain of command as far up as necessary, then, theoretically, you could stroll downtown with loaded weapons.  Good luck with that.

Im not sure about the first part of your interpretation there, Mike. Generally, the sub-heading Bar of action and the words "no action lies" mean that no legal action can be founded on the mere fact that the execution of manoevers occured. [such as a civil lawsuit for nervous shock from seeing armed soldiers on your street.] Just my 0.02.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Im not sure about the first part of your interpretation there, Mike. Generally, the sub-heading Bar of action and the words "no action lies" mean that no legal action can be founded on the mere fact that the execution of manoevers occured. [such as a civil lawsuit for nervous shock from seeing armed soldiers on your street.] Just my 0.02.

Whiskey, thank you, I bow to the expert's interpretation.

 

[1feral1]

The Seaforth Highlanders (Vancouver) were supposed to do the BFT last night, but it was cancelled due to an incident last Wednesday whereby the 12 th Service Battalion in Richmond had the police draw there arms on the Reservists.
Apparentley the service battalion guys were doing there BFT when the police stopped them (pointing there pistols at the guys) due to the fact that they were carring there rifles.

I thought we were supposed to be on the same side....

Has anybody heard anything more about this

 

Their Unit's Ops cell should have notified the police in writing well in advance, so the police working that night would have been briefed by their Shift Supervisor before they started their tours.

If this did happen, it does not take the brains of a rocket scientist to figure out what was going on.

As much as the police were no doubt reacting to a citizen's complaint, of which calibre could have been 'terrorists with machine guns'

The police could have approached it with more common sense IMHO, and did a brief assessment before acting the way they did. I think it was extreme.

Who's fault?

The Militia Units. For improper notification of the authorities.

My two quid,


Wes

 

[Michael OLeary]

I suppose the specifics of this single incident matter less than the general realization that local commanders everywhere have to execute their notifications well in advance, and ensure follow-up occurs immediately before the training event.  Really not much different that booking your range and then visiting Range Control on the way out to the range.

 

[Teeps74]

I suppose the specifics of this single incident matter less than the general realization that local commanders everywhere have to execute their notifications well in advance, and ensure follow-up occurs immediately before the training event.  Really not much different that booking your range and then visiting Range Control on the way out to the range.

Having once organized training on public & private land (I even landed helicopters in a farmer's field), I can say that it is not that painful to organise training out and about... It is usually just a formality consisting of a lot of common sense (ie doing the Land Clearances, and informing the locals through news paper ads and public service announcements... I also went door to door on the recce). For marches and what not, just paying a visit to the police in advance should be enough, they have always been open and thankful to the advance notice to me.

 

[PJOsborne]

A very interesting situation. I had wondered how Freedom of the City would fit into, say, a Wednesday night TV march with weapons, since I have led them in the past. We try to pay our respects to the VPD watch officer via email or phone and keep them informed just in case someone gets nervous and phones it in. Once or twice I have emailed or phoned on the night of, and they've been very accomodating. Usually since we don't venture too far out from the Armouries, the cops just wave as they drive by.

 

[Meridian]

I'm sure there are many applicable regulations, but doest this all come under the [paraphrased] political science definitions of sovereign government? More specifically, a sovereign government is one that exercises a monopoly on the use of force within its territory?

Given the CF is an instrument of the Government, (and a pretty weighty instrument when it comes to monopoly of force), I don't really get why  there would be any question whatsoever that the army *CAN* (not should) run around wherever it pleases with rifles loaded and 105 ready to fire?

Put another way - if the NDA did not specifically lay out what is required in order to run around (ie proper notice),  what else constitutionally would forbid or limit the federal government from deploying troops for any reason whatsoever (training or otherwise) anywhere within Canada's territory?

 

[Michael OLeary]

Now add a common sense factor.  If the cops know you're out there training with your weapons, then they know not to react to every panic call from the citizenry with the potential for armed force response.  Informing the public and doing land clearances minimizes the extra work from lawsuits following damages and trespass.  Not to follow basic procedures to inform LEO and public (depending on activity) is simply poor local PR and invites unnecessary follow-up activities and a potential drain on LEO to react just to find out it's military training.

Just because we are nationally constituted does not exempt us from local, regional, and provincial regulations.

That would only result in us being what the radical left wants to accuse us of being.

 

[medicineman]

Freedom of the City Ceremonies have a rather formalized ritual, which includes the CO of the Unit concerned walking up to the City Hall, knocking and announcing their presence and that of the unit and OBTAINING PERMISSION to march the unit through the city from the Mayor or designate.  Even when granted Keys of the City, they're still supposed to at least let someone know they're out for a walkabout town, especially armed.  Just common courtesy and sense (yes, I know I claim that both are being or have already been bred out of the gene pool, but gotta give people the benefit of the doubt first).   It doesn't have much to do these days with PT, though the Brigade in Calgary had a pretty tacit understanding with the locals and CPS that we would be doing battle PT and BFT's in public and armed.  Never got police bothering me or mates once in 6 years (at least for running around playing soldier )

MM

 

[1feral1]

I would say plus one, ha!

You are exactly correct.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[max flinch]

The lowdown: Weapons drawn but not pointed. Proper notification was given prior to march. Watch commander was not informed during handover to evening shift. Confusion reigns, but it's a police screwup. There is now a more formal procedure to be followed including phoning local police prior to stepping off to confirm with watch commander.

That said, whatever dumbass actually drew is (I hope) still filling out paperwork in triplicate.

 

[1feral1]

The lowdown: Weapons drawn but not pointed. Proper notification was given prior to march. Watch commander was not informed during handover to evening shift. Confusion reigns, but it's a police screwup. There is now a more formal procedure to be followed including phoning local police prior to stepping off to confirm with watch commander.

That said, whatever dumbass actually drew is (I hope) still filling out paperwork in triplicate.

Max, can you back up your submission with a reference of some type?

Thanks.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The simple solution? The BFT requires the weapon to be carried, not slung. We didn't want to alert or offend the civies, so we broke them in half, put them in a garbage bag, and put them in the valise. The local PD was also informed we were out there.

We conformed to the rules and the civies were never aware we had our guns with us.

Start thinking outside the box.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

Either way I think it's silly and foolish (especially with all the news coverage the CF has gotten the last few years) that regular people don't immediately recognize us as Canadian Forces and are so quick to assume we are up to no good and possible terrorists or whatnot. WE EXIST TO PROTECT YOU, man, chill out 

Secondly, just a hypothetical question, what kind of cop are you that when responding to a complaint or concern that there are armed men in the streets and coming upon said complaint or concern (as a person that represents the government , law, order and discipline no less) you do NOT IMMEDIATELY recognize these 'suspects' as CF members? Not only do they not realize or make the physical/chemical connection inside their brains that these are Canadian Soldiers and very most likely do not mean any harm whatsoever to the public but they DRAW THEIR WEAPONS ON THEM?

Holy ROE violation  ;D