Hazing thrives in organizations obsessed with conformity... - CBC Opinion

[ballz]

How did this come about? How does it relate to the Navy, or being at sea? Pies/eggs? Line crossing ceremonies I understand.

I think Lumber brings up a great question. It is not a black and white issue. Not everything has a negative affect on individuals nor group morale. If you want to be part of a group, there is *always* some level of conformity required. Are we seriously going to say that  the CAF could be an effective machine without some level of conformity? Without group norms, traditions, rites of passage, etc? Could BMQ or BMOQ not be construed as sanctioned hazing in an attempt to achieve conformity?

 

[Haggis]

I think Lumber brings up a great question. It is not a black and white issue. Not everything has a negative affect on individuals nor group morale. If you want to be part of a group, there is *always* some level of conformity required. Are we seriously going to say that  the CAF could be an effective machine without some level of conformity? Without group norms, traditions, rites of passage, etc? Could BMQ or BMOQ not be construed as sanctioned hazing in an attempt to achieve conformity?

There has to be some nexus to a bonafide operational requirement (BFOR) for all training and activities conducted during BMQ/BMOQ and other PD/training.  One issue is that the nexus is not always apparent to the trainee.  Maybe it was poorly articulated by the staff?  Maybe the trainee was not intellectually able to draw the link?  (i.e. why do I have to go through the gas hut if I already trust that the mask will work?)

Some traditions are key to fostering conformity and group cohesion.  A good example would be the USMCs "Crucible" exercise which has a clear BFOR nexus and is the final validation of boot camp training.  In my mind, an initiation/rite of passage must have a desirable outcome and be something, while apprehended to a degree, is looked upon favourably by the participants.  Nothing worthwhile should ever come easy particularly when lives are at stake. 

Over the years I've been subjected to several initiations/rites of passage etc.  Some made sense.  Some did not, at the time.  Some never did.  Luckily I never suffered serious physical or mental injury as a result.  Traditions come and go.  Things that were done to me four decades ago, while acceptable then, would result in jail time for the staff these days.  I have no heartache with that. The "good old days" weren't always good.

 

[AbdullahD]

I was debating sharing this, but figured might as well. Lumber got me thinking about initiation vs hazing and I stumbled upon this, it touches on that and that North American culture could be well served having more substantial initiation rights.

Slightly off topic, but it is interesting at least to me.

https://www.samwoolfe.com/2014/06/the-psychology-of-initiation-rites.html

Abdullah

 

[Kat Stevens]

Certain groups in our country start ritual initiation when they cut the tips off their infant male offspring's penis. It can only get better from there.

 

[AbdullahD]

Certain groups in our country start ritual initiation when they cut the tips off their infant male offspring's penis. It can only get better from there.

See that is interesting rituals, traditions and/or initiations that are "as old as time" must have started for a reason...

But whether those reasons exist in this day and age and whether those traditions should be practiced is another discussion.

https://www.healthline.com/health/mens-health/circumcised-vs-uncircumcised#risk-of-infection

I know men who have been circumcised as an adult due to medical reasons, upon looking into it more hygiene, STD prevention etc makes the pro vs con, barbaric or not conversation far more interesting. Practicing upon kids who can not realistically understand or respect the gravity of the decision is another discussion to have as well... but I think this if for another thread lol

Abdullah

 

[Kat Stevens]

The hygiene argument has been torpedoed since soap became a thing, and STDs? Really?  Stick your best friend in a dirty place, and I can guarantee that a condom is far better protection than a mutilated foreskin.

 

[AbdullahD]

The hygiene argument has been torpedoed since soap became a thing, and STDs? Really?  Stick your best friend in a dirty place, and I can guarantee that a condom is far better protection than a mutilated foreskin.

Condoms, yes are better. But sometimes unavailable or not used.. so an argument is there to cicumsize. this link has links to 104 different pages discussing it or research papers covering it.

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/STD/vanhowe6/

Soap and hygeine? I would have been inclined to agree, but it seems even with the advent of soap it is still issues.

https://www.circinfo.net/penile_hygiene.html

Now how needed these traditions are in the modern era, is a discussion that I think religions could be well served having it is to bad emotions get involved to easily due to the personal nature of it.

This is a very debatable issue, I think we will not be able to agree on it. But we will derail this thread badly.

Abdullah

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

How did this come about? How does it relate to the Navy, or being at sea? Pies/eggs? Line crossing ceremonies I understand.

I think Rifleman is referring to the "7-days-at-sea-pie-in-the-face" thing only.

And quite frankly, that's a new one to me. Served a little over 24 years exclusively in the RCN until I retired in 2001 and I have never heard of nor ever witnessed that alleged "tradition". It also wouldn't have waited very long in those days, as we basically sailed 7 straight or more just about once every second month.

Other than crossing the line ceremonies, I can't think of much in the Navy of that time that would constitute hazing, other perhaps than the odd person with bad personal hygiene being shown that showers exist in a rather rough way.

 

[Rifleman62]

Where do the "wingers" obtain (purchase  ) the pies/eggs on board a ship? If there were 5/10/20 newbies, that's a lot of rations wasted. 

 

[Furniture]

Where do the "wingers" obtain (purchase  ) the pies/eggs on board a ship? If there were 5/10/20 newbies, that's a lot of rations wasted. 

In my experience it's no more of a waste than letting the cooks run any of the food through the Flavoursuck3000 and throw it on the steam line...  :boke:

I have no idea when the 7 days at sea thing started, but by the time I was sailing on the Left Coast in 2012 it was well established.

 

[Navy_Pete]

In my experience it's no more of a waste than letting the cooks run any of the food through the Flavoursuck3000 and throw it on the steam line...  :boke:

I have no idea when the 7 days at sea thing started, but by the time I was sailing on the Left Coast in 2012 it was well established.

I vaguely remember it starting to be a thing in the late 2000s; probably a new tradition that grew up around a time when people were struggling to get enough sea time to complete their OJTs.

Now we've gone hard over to the riding the ships hard, putting them away wet, and wondering why we get major failures, but life without challenges is boring.

 

[TCM621]

I think Rifleman is referring to the "7-days-at-sea-pie-in-the-face" thing only.

And quite frankly, that's a new one to me. Served a little over 24 years exclusively in the RCN until I retired in 2001 and I have never heard of nor ever witnessed that alleged "tradition". It also wouldn't have waited very long in those days, as we basically sailed 7 straight or more just about once every second month.

Other than crossing the line ceremonies, I can't think of much in the Navy of that time that would constitute hazing, other perhaps than the odd person with bad personal hygiene being shown that showers exist in a rather rough way.

When I was in the Navy, some people got "hazed" during their first seven days at sea. It was real popular among the bosuns. The other one I saw was when one of the MS changed messes. His friends would often helpfully pack up all his gear and his mattress to help him move. Copious amounts of duct tape may have been involved.

I think some sorts of initiation rituals are extremely valuable and in some cases the worth is directly related to the discomfort. One role of these rituals was to strength camaraderie though mutually shared miserable experiences. if you ask virtually any CAF member what a change parade is, they will know and the vast majority will have some story about their experiences. That is something we all share that Rob at the Bank doesn't understand. The weird insults that only seem to exist in the military is another. If you call someone a blade everyone in the CAF knows what you mean or if you call an MP a meathead, we all know what you mean. These are all little rituals we share with each other adn it brings us together.

All hazing rituals have this ideal at their core. Where we get lost is that the military is an organization where toughness is a virtue and people will take things a step (or ten) too far. The video of 1 Commando leading the black guy around on a leash back in the 90s is a horrible example of hazing gone wrong. A good initiation can be scary, or exciting, or uncomfortable but it is usually followed up by an outpouring of camaraderie and welcome. I actually support sanctioned initiation rituals because then it can be kept in check. Rather than have a couple of random Cpls or Jnr officers deciding what is appropriate, we can have the leadership over see it and (hopefully) use their authority and experience to ensure the end result is positive.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

What about the initiation traditions are RMC?  Those are known, supervised events AFIAK...yet to some it might make some 1st years uncomfortable...and then, not long after, they're the ones 'administering' the next group of 1st years.

Hazing, or tradition?

 

[Stoker]

Seen the "seven days" at sea in 1992 when I was sailing in HMCS Terra Nova, usually you were duct-taped up in the mess and threatened. Fast forward to present day and you are accused of hazing for making sailors go through the crossing the line ceremony. :

 

[Lumber]

Seen the "seven days" at sea in 1992 when I was sailing in HMCS Terra Nova, usually you were duct-taped up in the mess and threatened. Fast forward to present day and you are accused of hazing for making sailors go through the crossing the line ceremony. :

Well, maybe this is just your choice of words, it since the line ceremony is now voluntary, were you to "make" someone go through it, then yes, it would be hazing (although having now graduated to shellback, I can say the ceremony wouldn't be much of a bad experience to be forced through).

 

[Stoker]

Well, maybe this is just your choice of words, it since the line ceremony is now voluntary, were you to "make" someone go through it, then yes, it would be hazing (although having now graduated to shellback, I can say the ceremony wouldn't be much of a bad experience to be forced through).

Pretty tame now, the majority goes through with it although peer pressure plays a part in some cases. The last ship I saw paint the bullring, they were even clothed so it is getting civilized and a far cry from what I did in 92.

 

[Furniture]

Pretty tame now, the majority goes through with it although peer pressure plays a part in some cases. The last ship I saw paint the bullring, they were even clothed so it is getting civilized and a far cry from what I did in 92.

Are you referring to the actual "crossing the line" or the weird Halifax custom of calling crossing the Arctic Circle "crossing the line"? One(the actual crossing the line) is internationally recognized buy the term "crossing the line", the other is only an East coast thing... The red and white lines are really cute though... 

 

[Brad Sallows]

If ethical leadership is weak or absent, cohesive groups can develop bad habits.

The Darker Side of the Force: The Negative Influence of Cohesion (in Military Review, Mar-Apr 2001).

The key is leadership.  Without leadership (the full chain - not just the one guy nominally in charge), a group sets its own values.

 

[FSTO]

Are you referring to the actual "crossing the line" or the weird Halifax custom of calling crossing the Arctic Circle "crossing the line"? One(the actual crossing the line) is internationally recognized buy the term "crossing the line", the other is only an East coast thing... The red and white lines are really cute though... 

The red and white lines? Are you talking about the red and white lines around the mast base?
Canadian Naval group

The famous Barber Pole Group was originally a group of 120 Flower-class corvettes built in Canada during World War II, and charged primarily with protecting freighter convoys. The original group was Escort Group C-3. This group of ships, with its red and white barber pole stripes painted on the funnel, is still represented in the current Royal Canadian Navy: all Atlantic fleet ships wear this insignia. HMCS Sackville is the last remaining Flower-class corvette.

As for crossing the Arctic circle, that usually involves the youngest pair of officers proceeding to the focsle and painting the bull ring blue. The current base commander of Halifax did that when he was a subbie in HMCS FRASER. I wasn't there but I heard that him and the other officer did it (the painting) naked.
Now the subbies wear a bathing suit.

 

[Underway]

Are you referring to the actual "crossing the line" or the weird Halifax custom of calling crossing the Arctic Circle "crossing the line"? One(the actual crossing the line) is internationally recognized buy the term "crossing the line", the other is only an East coast thing... The red and white lines are really cute though... 

Not an East Coast thing.  Crossing the arctic circle is an important event in many navies worldwide.  Joining the "Loyal Order of the Polar Bear" goes back to at least WW2 as the RCN Ceremonial Flagship has a half blue bullring (other half is red).  I expect when the West Coast gets the AOPS you're going to get that tradition cropping up there as well. 

And even if it isn't the original crossing the line, traditions are allowed to evolve.

And its the youngest officer and youngest NCM who paints the bullring IIRC.