Pistol Replacement

[army]

Posted by "Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:51:27 PDT
Agree totally Michael.
You may be sad to find out that Scotty Dog wood no longer looks like it‘s
namesake after the new maps have come out. Just sort of a blob of trees
nowadays.
Steve
PS: Locating gunners have to know our way around by contours extremely
well. I was taught by my NCOs... "OK Sir, you‘ve been in the back of the CP
for this hour-long road move, get out and tell me where we are within 3
minutes". Amazing what being put on the spot will do for you.
>From: "Michael O‘Leary"
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Map-Using, was Re: Pistol Replacement
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:27:45 -0400
>
>It seems that map-using is the ultimate OJT event, with foreseeable
>results. And as a rule, it is those officers or NCOs who are required to
>use their maps in everyday execution of their duties that eventually learn
>the necessary skills to do it well: gunners and mortarmen usually, recce
>when they‘re being recce and not just posing with a tank-hunting knife
>strapped upsidedown to their web gear, the air observers were damn good at
>it but only at 120 kph. Too many others depended on the few naturals in
>their midst, content to follow in convoy or to simply follow the well-worn
>tracks from "Square Wood" to the "Scotty Dog" beacuse that‘s where the next
>objective always is, without concsiously following the contours or reading
>the ground.
>
>This is why the RV series was so good for the army‘s small unit comanders
>section/TC/detachment to coy/sqn/bty. It put pretty well everyone on new
>terrain. And when it was run in Suffield, they old pros didn‘t have the
>luxury of just driving from one treeline to the next. As a young mortar
>platoon second-in-command on RV 85 doing recce, baseplate preparations, and
>leading in the OP parties when necessary, it was where I suddenly realized
>I was reading my map, rather than just following the roads and woodlines a
>lucky combination of nervous sweat, hard work and damn good NCOs in the
>platoon to watch over me. I certainly wasn‘t taught that degree of
>map-using in training, and the package hasn‘t changed since then.
>
>mike
>
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[army]

Posted by "Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com> on Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:16:17 -0400
Matt, the C8 is issued to the Armour for tank crews. Infantry officers and
troops are issued the C7. No word yet on whether there will be an issue of
C8s for LAV crews - but I doubt it.
mike
At 10:55 PM 6/26/00 EDT, you wrote:
>Now, I apologize to all those on the list for just asking question after
>question, but I have to know this stuff really soon .
> Now, I know a little bit about the C7 \ C7A1, but I have a question
>about the C8‘s.- They are just like a smaller version of the C7, but use the
>same 30 rd. clip, right?
> And secondly, would it be an infantry officer‘s perogative whether to
>carry a C7 or a C8?
> Once again, sorry for the ignorance,
> -Matt
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
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[army]

Posted by "Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com> on Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:09:14 -0400
At 10:54 PM 6/26/00 -0600, Gunner wrote:
>
>Put my 2 cents in for officers carrying a pistol! If you want to carry
>a rifle, hand in your commission and become a rifleman no offence
>Mike.
>
>Derrick Forsythe wrote:
>> I disagree - both the FOO and the Recce officer are pretty much useless
>> without a rifle - and they don‘t really get in the way
>>
>> > From: Bruce Williams [SMTP:Williabr@uregina.ca]
>> > I believe that most infantry platoon commanders should carry a rifle
be it
>> > a C7 or the trusty old C1A1 I carried. For most other officer jobs a
rifle
>> > just gets in the way.
You‘re going to have to work harder than that to offend me Gunner. I firmly
believe that the most important weapon system on the battlefield is the
infantry rifleman. But he needs someone to "tell him what to do, and
how/when/where/why to do it." Insert applicable politically correct gender
switching pronouns as appropriate. That leadership role is the officer‘s
principal responsibility and the extra weight and bother of a long arm
could make the difference between good and mediocre leadership and
decision-making when stress and fatigue levels rise for all involved.
The rifle is the tip of an iceberg when it come to load-bearing. Don‘t
forget the basic load of rifle ammo, then why not a few grenades or even a
LAW.
We have to keep in mind that fatigue has two interdependent components -
physical and psychological. We need our officers to be switched on all the
times and prepared to motivate tired troops. This is much more difficult if
they have been carrying the same load over the same terrain for the same
distance. That‘s why we gave them signallers to carry radios and
batman/runners with rifles for close-in protection.
Unfortunately, the impression of political correctness has crept into how
we equip our officers. We get away with it in an army where campaigns
exercises have a 4-5 day activity cycle and battles are 2-3 hours
duration. Similarly with a mainly mechanized force we aren‘t habitually
subject to the effects of load-carrying under the stresses of combat real
or simulated for any length of time.
I am continually amazed when we repeatedly circle these arguments. Many of
these issues would be resolved if commanders and staff would review the
"Canadian Army Training Memoranda" and Notes Form Theatres of War"
published during the Second World War. We need to give more credit for
research and less for originality in politically correct justification.
We have to approach these questions of dress and equipment from the right
point of view, that of practicality and effectiveness under the most trying
conditions:
"If you wish to decide on the most practical way of dressing the soldiers,
you ought to banish from your mind the vision of how they look drawn up on
parade on some splendid square, and instead imagine how they must appear
when they are marching across fields, climbing hills, crashing through
woods, fording rivers and digging in the ground, in all probability at a
time when they are crushed by exhaustion, and exposed to rain, wind or
appalling cold." Breze, Marquis, Reflexions sur les prejuges militaires,
Turin, 1779 - Christopher Duffy, The Military Experience in the Age of
Reason, 1987
Also, be careful how you equip commanders, lest they be tempted to
participate in the battle rather than to remain a dispassionate director of
the forces under their command:
"Commanders who actively engaged the enemy with their weapons systems were
three times more likely to be killed than those who fought with their unit
and only fired as a last resort." - Command Continuity on the Airland
Battlefield, US Army Centre for Army Lessons Learned CALL, Newsletter No.
88-1
I have seen officers trying to use their rifles and LAWs during
platoon/company field firing and have the assault grind to a halt because
no-one was leading the attack.
We have to remain aware that if we teach our commanders that they must do
everything their riflemen do as well as be the leader, it places an
incredible amount of extra physical and psychological stress upon them. Our
leaders are not superhuman, we want them to be able to make good decisions
at a time when most others are incapacitated by fatigue and stress, for
that reason we have to protect our combat leaders from themselves and/or
the effects of teaching poorly justified practices which increase their own
work loads and stress levels:
"Some commanders, during periods of stress, work themselves to a standstill
and refuse all offers of food and drink and other creature comforts. At
such times it may be the duty of the staff to insist tactfully that the
commander is looked after properly and fed and rested. The care and
maintenance of the commander is sometimes a difficult task." - From an
article in "The Tank," quoted in Current Reports From Overseas, No. 64, The
War Office, 22nd November, 1944
Well-trained officers who remain alert will stay out of the enemy‘s line of
fire whether they carry a rifle or a pistol. Those who are poorly trained
usually by their own poor attention during training, tired, stressed or
practicing bad habits learned in dry training they will do something to
attract an enemy‘s fire more readily than what type of weapon they are
carrying.
mike
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
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[army]

Posted by "Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com> on Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:23:54 -0400
At 10:44 PM 6/26/00 PDT, Steve Kuervers wrote:
>Geoff:
>
>If the scariest thing on the battlefield is an officer with a map and
>compass, what about an officer with GPS??
>
>I can say it, I is one.
>
>Steve, Mud Gunner, Locating Gunner one of the few
Steve, I agree. The fundamental problem, however, is not that the
technology is evil, but that many people allow the fade of the skills it
replaced both from lack of practice as well as dropping them from training
altogether. I remember when we tried to develop the Mortar Fire Data
Calculator to replace the now returned mortar plotting board. Young NCOs
and officers were enamoured of the high-tech approach to calculating fire
data. But they also failed to gain the one critically important skill that
the plotting baord provided over time - the ability to ‘see‘ a fire mission
and automatically know if the relationship between the observers adjustment
and the change to bearing and elevatuion was appropriate.
That understanding of the geometry went a long way to catching errors
before data went to the mortars. With the calculator too many were willing
to believe anything it told them, even when a crippled system or finger
problems on entry could provide obviously wrong data.
Simultaneously, those who embraced the new technology too eagerly ignored
the maintenance of the manual skills. They were, therefore much less
effective when batteries or calculators died.
There is the very real danger of similar hazards with GPS. Good instruction
and thorough practice of non-electronic navigation skills becomes more
important, because the day you need them you‘ll have to get it right the
first time.
DS - "Mr. Bloggins, your GPS batteries just died, who is the back-up
navigator for your patrol."
Bloggins - in a very small voice I didn‘t think I needed one Warrant. The
course officer said we could use the GPS to navigate on our patrols.
mike
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
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[army]

Posted by "Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com> on Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:27:19 -0400
At 10:51 PM 6/26/00 PDT, you wrote:
>Agree totally Michael.
>
>You may be sad to find out that Scotty Dog wood no longer looks like it‘s
>namesake after the new maps have come out. Just sort of a blob of trees
>nowadays.
>
>Steve
I guess I‘ll see it in August when I deploy for ARCON with the Princess
Louise Fusiliers. As well as a few other swamps and sites I either sank my
M-113 in or spent the night swatting mosquitos as a pl comd.
mike
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
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[army]

Posted by Juno847627709@aol.com on Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:30:19 EDT
great. thanks mike
-matt
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[army]

Posted by "Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com> on Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:37:11 PDT
Boy oh boy do I agree with you Michael.
One of my biggest shocks was just after I finished Phase 3 Arty, and found
out that they were taking the majority of the ‘manual‘ mission training out
of it for Officers.
The concept is that officers only need to know how to manually fire AN, and
they are taught how to double-check the other ‘specialty‘ missions. But I
found that my extended training ie the ‘old way‘ allowed me to fully
understand the process going on in the Milipac and, nowadays, the BFCS. In
fact, it was even more helpful as I continued my training ‘out-of-school‘
and learned about things like Mapping Geods and stuff. Just for interest,
did you realize that the Milipac was never updated to the WGS84 Geod? This
means that at extreme distances 16 km it would be quite a bit out of
whack with the actual maps because the old Geod was quite a bit smaller than
WGS84.
Of course, MITCP officers never get this anyway. I believe they have always
only done AN area neutralization missions. Derrick, can you shed any
light on this?
Ah well, in my not so important opinion, I believe this is a mistake.
Steve
>From: "Michael O‘Leary"
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Technology versus Skills, Re: Pistol Replacement
>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:23:54 -0400
>
>At 10:44 PM 6/26/00 PDT, Steve Kuervers wrote:
> >Geoff:
> >
> >If the scariest thing on the battlefield is an officer with a map and
> >compass, what about an officer with GPS??
> >
> >I can say it, I is one.
> >
> >Steve, Mud Gunner, Locating Gunner one of the few
>
>Steve, I agree. The fundamental problem, however, is not that the
>technology is evil, but that many people allow the fade of the skills it
>replaced both from lack of practice as well as dropping them from training
>altogether. I remember when we tried to develop the Mortar Fire Data
>Calculator to replace the now returned mortar plotting board. Young NCOs
>and officers were enamoured of the high-tech approach to calculating fire
>data. But they also failed to gain the one critically important skill that
>the plotting baord provided over time - the ability to ‘see‘ a fire mission
>and automatically know if the relationship between the observers adjustment
>and the change to bearing and elevatuion was appropriate.
>
>That understanding of the geometry went a long way to catching errors
>before data went to the mortars. With the calculator too many were willing
>to believe anything it told them, even when a crippled system or finger
>problems on entry could provide obviously wrong data.
>
>Simultaneously, those who embraced the new technology too eagerly ignored
>the maintenance of the manual skills. They were, therefore much less
>effective when batteries or calculators died.
>
>There is the very real danger of similar hazards with GPS. Good instruction
>and thorough practice of non-electronic navigation skills becomes more
>important, because the day you need them you‘ll have to get it right the
>first time.
>
>DS - "Mr. Bloggins, your GPS batteries just died, who is the back-up
>navigator for your patrol."
>Bloggins - in a very small voice I didn‘t think I needed one Warrant. The
>course officer said we could use the GPS to navigate on our patrols.
>
>
>mike
>
>
>
>
>
>Michael O‘Leary
>
>Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
>http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
>
>The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
>Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
>new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
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>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
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[army]

Posted by "Geoff Tyrell" <paraprimadonna@hotmail.com> on Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:18:04 PDT
good point...im applying to RMC this september, by the way. how tough is
BOTC? im an Air Cadet Flight Sergeant not the real thing, i know and one
of my......useless officers is going on it this summer. any pointers?
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[army]

Posted by "Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com> on Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:23:27 -0400
At 08:18 AM 6/27/00 PDT, Geoff Tyrell wrote:
>
>good point...im applying to RMC this september, by the way. how tough is
>BOTC? im an Air Cadet Flight Sergeant not the real thing, i know and one
>of my......useless officers is going on it this summer. any pointers?
Geoff, BOTC is only as tough as the individual makes it.
In a nutshell, the best and most succinct words of advice for anyone with
some prior experience is this:
"Keep your mouth shut."
"Keep your ears and eyes open."
"Help others with the mundane stuff i.e., the chicken****: boots, weapon
maint, bedspaces, etc. so you can all focus and cooperate on the core
though not necessarily obvious aspects of basic officer training:
leadership, problem-solving, teamwork, etc."
"When you‘re getting frustrated watching someone having trouble catching on
to something you think is easy, remember you had to learn it for a first
time once yourself."
Good luck in your training. Just remember over the next few years that RMC
is not to be confused with reality.
mike
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
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